Thread: Very Interesting Round-Dial 10EE -- EE27264

Originally Posted by Cal Haines

they plated first with nickle, then chrome.

I've never had the sort of daily diet or metabolism that gives rise to 's**t fingers'. but am still wanting to at least 'electroless' nickel-plate a goodly number of bits about the shop just to reduce maintenance. Not as pretty as chrome or cobalt, but safer and easier to do 'in-house', and cheaper.

Nickel gives pretty fair corrosion resistance, as demonstrated on RMS Queen Mary to name one large-scale use, and quite a few firearms for smaller-scale

Bill

Originally Posted by Cal Haines

Having the dial and plates chromed wasn't just for cosmetics. The pot metal is pretty soft, so the chrome adds protection and it makes the plates much easier to read. It only cost about $65 to have everything plated. IIRC, they plated first with nickle, then chrome.

Never meant to imply that the chrome wasn't functionial. But I still reckon that you are just a wee mite proud-like when you mention that lathe. I certainly am of mine and I haven't done anything to justify it except buy and tote the thing. It is a good thing!

Originally Posted by thermite

Moreover a 10EE is reversible, so that wants front AND rear idlers.

'Forensically', it appears that Monarch positioned the idlers near span mid-point as they did so as to reduce risk of vibration starting in those long belts, not to increase sheave grip.

Ergo a light touch should be all that is wanted, as the belts are being used at half or a bit less of their rated max load for the sheave sizes used.

Good points. Vibration was my main concern. But I only thought it half way through when I went to adjust tension.

Paul

Hello

Here is a picture of the oil sump. Certainly nothing glamorous but getting down to it was a sort of adventure destination after what it took to clean it out. The white flecks are bits of oil absorbent, The sort of irregular line is not a crack so far as I can tell. There is nothing on the underside to match. Just seems to be a mold mark.


Here is the dial on the carriage wheel. The one with the coarse gradations moves when the carriage is moved. The other one does not. I have not found a way to free it from the position that it is in.


There are no knobs on the outside. There is no connection between the feed-enable lever beside it. I can pass a string between them.


I ordered a manual from Monarch hoping that it would detail this and the ELSR. It is just generic round dial. I'm not really complaining. It is amazing that they have as much as they do on seventy-year-old machines. Lucky for me that you guys are willing to devote the time and energy to this group. Unless someone has a better suggestion, I'm going to set about getting the wheel off then opening up the dials.

I have not fired the lathe up yet. I have the recommended grease for the Reliant drive coming from Piedmont Hoist and I still want to check the brushes.


PAUL


Paul

Great to hear you will do mechanical forensics on that enigma dial. Please take photos of its innards, you might need them and we'd be interested to learn about a rare feature. There will be gears in it, careful when separating the outer parts. It's not fun when little bits fall out and hit the deck from who knows where.

Paul,

There should be some way to set the outer dial to zero. Maybe it works by friction. Are you able to rotate it by hand?

How about the handwheel? Perhaps you piston it in or out to engage the dial?

When you take it apart make sure that you put witness marks on all mating pieces. Gears in particular need to be marked because often the timing of the gears is important.

Cal

Originally Posted by Cal Haines

Paul,
When you take it apart make sure that you put witness marks on all mating pieces. Gears in particular need to be marked because often the timing of the gears is important.

Cal

There is a Larsen cartoon that show two English safari types in a tent. One is standing. He is eyeing his tightly laced boots with a surprised concern. His fellow is seated on a cot with one boot on and engaged in dumping all manner of foul-looking creatures from his other boot. Witness marks would have been a good idea. More later.
Paul

Hi all
The front ring on the carriage accumulator wasn't moving because it was varnished fast to its support. That broke a gear shaft inside. I have pictures. Will post when I get time.
Paul

Hi all

Here is the basic story with pictures. There are more pictures in higher resolution at Index of /Monarch for any that are really into it.

The graduated dials are sleeves. There is a concentric sleeve within each which contains a ring gear.


The driver is a 28 tooth gear attached to the crank shaft. It is a little out of focus in the picture. Off this there is another 28 tooth gear. Its shaft is mounted in the hole that is at ten o'clock. The spur that drives the accumulator mounts in the hole at a little shy of twelve o'clock.
The arrow points to a shaft that has twisted off.


Looking at the front of the case you can see the other end of the broken shaft at eight o'clock. Around it is the spur that would drive the finely-graduated ring on the front of the case. The sleeve with the ring gear is frozen fast by what just turned out to be old oil turned to varnish. The middle shaft has the 28 tooth gear that engages its fellow on the crank shaft on top. Below it is a 36 tooth gear that drives the 12 tooth spur that stayed with the back half of the case. The gear that drives the ring has 23 teeth and the ring 82. If I got it right, the ratio between the crank shaft and the front ring is 69:82. For the accumulator, the setup is 15 on the middle cluster driving 33 on our right. That steps down to 15 driving an 81 tooth ring gear.


After I post this, I'm headed to the shop to fix the broken shaft. What I come up with will depend on hardness. The hardness of the shaft in Rockwell units will determine the hardness of drilling holes in PITA units. I do think it is essential that this shaft not fail by slipping. It needs to be either fast or broken. A shear pin seems to fit the bill if I can find places where drilling isn't too hard.

Paul

Paul,

Thank you for taking (and hosting) such clear photos showing the intricate detail of the inner workings!

Mike

Interesting assembly, another thank you for showing its innards. I believe it's a first for the forum. It appears there will be timing issues upon reassembly, can you tell how the two gears on the broken shaft were oriented to one another?

In a properly operating unit the torques on the gears and shaft interface will be small. Evaluate how they were originally fitted to the shaft (press?). Simply duplicating the original fitup would be sufficient without using pins. Locking/retaining compound would be belts and suspenders if desired without the complication and shaft weakening effects of adding pin(s).

How precisely the two gears were oriented one to another is lost to history. Since the zero can be moved at will, I'm not sure the timing issues are a problem. At least that is how I chose to gamble. None of the surfaces were hardened enough to notice. So I fit a shaft to the larger pinion that moves the ring gear and silver brazed it in place. It continues through the longer shaft beyond the small pinion. That I secured with a shear pin 0.100" in diameter. That just happens to be the diameter of the shank of an 8d finishing nail which just happened to be the bit of mild steel wire that was available to me. Everything was easy to drill and finish.

Now I have three boring days of making a living at my day job before I can get back to the stuff that matters. By Wednesday evening I should have it all back together and working. I'll let you know.

BTW I think the gears were originally pressed to the shafts. I don't see much evidence of locks.

Paul

I'm not a EE guy, but the dial workings looks similar to a metric/inch dial, mind you the ratios would be diffrent.
Ideally you would want the whole number on the inner dial to line up with the zero on the outer dial, on every full rotation. The orentiation of the shaft gears may alter this slightly but i suspect that there is enough adjustment in the other gears that will allow you to align the two dials.

Originally Posted by Winmac

I'm not a EE guy, but the dial workings looks similar to a metric/inch dial, mind you the ratios would be diffrent.
Ideally you would want the whole number on the inner dial to line up with the zero on the outer dial, on every full rotation. The orentiation of the shaft gears may alter this slightly but i suspect that there is enough adjustment in the other gears that will allow you to align the two dials.

Same issue as with clocks and watches. There needs to be at least one friction-fit - usually at the hub of the hands, so the second, minute, and hour hands can all hit a marker spot-on.

'Accumulator' dial readouts as a general class are still in current use, BTW - mechanical as well as electronic

Bill

Originally Posted by DaveE907

Simply duplicating the original fitup would be sufficient without using pins. Locking/retaining compound would be belts and suspenders if desired without the complication and shaft weakening effects of adding pin(s).

My concern was that allowing any slippage could wind up still driving the dial -- but inaccurately. This would allow you to make a slew of parts out of spec without realizing it.
I felt that it was better to have it fail catastrophically, if it fails at all, so the dial just quits turning.

Originally Posted by Cal Haines

Having the dial and plates chromed wasn't just for cosmetics. The pot metal is pretty soft, so the chrome adds protection and it makes the plates much easier to read. It only cost about $65 to have everything plated. IIRC, they plated first with nickle, then chrome.

Cal

Cal, where did you get the plating done. Thats a pretty good price, need to give them some of my business.

Dave

Originally Posted by docswarf

My concern was that allowing any slippage could wind up still driving the dial -- but inaccurately. This would allow you to make a slew of parts out of spec without realizing it.
I felt that it was better to have it fail catastrophically, if it fails at all, so the dial just quits turning.

The accumulator dial (Monarch calls it the micro-gauging dial) for the cross feed works almost identically, and has the same failure mode. I believe that I posted an article on the forum several years ago that showed the repairs to mine, which had stripped the teeth on the small pinion. I ended up making a new pinion, and I think I made a spare.

Also, the lubrication for this carriage accumulator dial assembly may not be working properly. The cross feed dial is pressure fed from the apron pump, but everything inside the apron is gravity fed. i.e. there are oill lines that run to the apron clutches, half nuts and the feed rod worm gear, but they drip onto the shaft oil holes, no pressure is involved. I would suggest that you remove the saddle so that you can inspect the lubrication for the carriage accumulator. It would be interesting to see how Monarch solved that problem.

Dave

Originally Posted by rimcanyon

Cal, where did you get the plating done. Thats a pretty good price, need to give them some of my business.

Dave

Hi Dave,

It was:

Ideal Custom Plating
937 South 6th Avenue, Tucson, AZ
(520) 882-9090

The seem to do mostly classic car and motorcycle parts...

Cal

Originally Posted by rimcanyon

The lubrication for this carriage accumulator dial assembly may not be working properly. The cross feed dial is pressure fed from the apron pump, but everything inside the apron is gravity fed. i.e. there are oill lines that run to the apron clutches, half nuts and the feed rod worm gear, but they drip onto the shaft oil holes, no pressure is involved. I would suggest that you remove the saddle so that you can inspect the lubrication for the carriage accumulator. It would be interesting to see how Monarch solved that problem.
Dave

I suspect they solved it with a hole at about 10 o'clock on the housing between the two dials. It is plugged with a 6-32 set screw. That removed, the hole nicely directs a drop of oil onto the middle of the three gear clusters.

While I had it apart I cleaned up all the pieces -- getting real familiar with every hole that could house dirt (or oil). I did'nt find any leading into the apron. The only way I can imagine getting oil into the dial assembly would be to pump it under pressure through the crank shaft and let it ooze out around the pinion. But I could not find any evidence of such a thing.

In any event, there certainly was a failure of lubrication. The sleeves were held tightly by residue from old oil.


It is all back together and works like a champ. Cranking the carriage still feels a little notchy from all the cranking of cogs in the dial housing. I'm sure this will smooth out as they get acquainted with their new meshing partner's teeth. This is not possibly related to a shortage of oil just now. I had hoped to get away with a light oil to resist its varnishing again. But spindle oil let static friction build up so that the graduated rings were hard to move smoothly to set the zeros. Way oil did the trick. There is plenty of it in there now.

EE27264 has not yet run on its own. The grease for the motor generator is on back order. Maybe I am being commendably obsessive about geting it ready or just afraid of what I find when I try it out.

Good going! Nothing wrong with being careful either.