Low Cost Machine Tending

Prasham · Dec 28, 2010

Hi

I thank Admin team and all the members who have created this wonderful forum.

I am searching for some low cost machine tending (cnc turning centers) automation. Standard Robots are pretty pricey and hence ruled out.

Is there any other solution? Is any one using refurbished robots? How's the downtime :willy_nilly:

Thanks

Prasham :cheers:

Stuart Caruk · Dec 28, 2010

I've been using refurbished fanuc robots for years and have yet to have an unscheduled maintenance event. The mean time between failures is quite high in most industrial robots. For machine tending you don't need the latest and greatest. All you need is a reliable way to move parts around. That just happens to be a task that robots excel at.

Tonytn36 · Dec 28, 2010

Please define "Low Cost".....

S_W_Bausch · Dec 28, 2010

Get a villager, pay him in rice and chickpeas, he can sleep under the machine.

3t3d · Dec 28, 2010

Mr Bausch, you just made yourself look like a Jerk.

Prasham,

Take a look at some of these videos for ideas on simple low cost ideas.
The first one uses the gang tool slide already on the lathe for the automation.

YouTube - Track loader with live tooling on OmniTurn GT-75

Here is a little more complexity.

YouTube - Automatic loader with turn around station on OmniTurn cnc lathe

This looks really simple,
YouTube - Automatic loader on CNC OmniTurn lathe

Many more ideas from them, keep looking

A used industrial robot may not cost more than $5,000 to $10,000 depending on what you find.
Someone told me a used welding robot may not have too much wear as compared to a palletizing robot.

Building some of the ideas in the videos can be for whatever you can scrounge up, and will depend on how dedicated you can make it. In other words, how parts in a row will you run?
the Robot can be simply reprogrammed for the next part, dedicated tooling might be cheaper, but specific for each part.

Can you tell us more details?

S_W_Bausch · Dec 28, 2010

Yes, you are most likely correct, but do you understand the punitive import duties in nations such as India.

They don't need no stinkin automation, there are already enough people underemployed.

The only reason man-powered rickshaws are going away is by the force of law.

My guess is a $500 used robot will be dutied as a $50,000 robot, and that is a non-starter.

Jason H · Dec 29, 2010

I am in the sewing industry and have had experience with companies in India trying to import specialty machines. Not sure if it is only related to sewing equipment, but you can't even get used machines into the country. If you want to buy new, it is no problem, but the used equipment they want to keep out. Also, once you get the equipment in, you cant get it back out, they wont let you export it.

So any investment you make, count on it staying in the country.

Jason

surplusjohn · Dec 29, 2010

this makes some sense. 20 years ago Mexico bought any thing that looked like iron and was cheap. Every dealer emptied their warehouses. So this actually inhibited the growth of productivity. If someone has a 70 year old boring mill that works good enough, they might not invest a pile in a new CNC.

Stuart Caruk · Dec 29, 2010

Hey 3t3d thanks for the link...

YouTube - Track loader with live tooling on OmniTurn GT-75

We removed one of our Fanuc robots a while back to make room for another machine, and I lost the ability to run a specific job in the lathe that used the robot to load the tiny parts. I've been meaning to slap a smaller LR mate over the door of the Haas just to run this job and haven't found the time. It would be much faster to use a track to load the parts and pick them up and insert them in the spindle with a tool in the turret. We don't have a gang slide but can accomplish the same task, albeit with a bit more motion. thanks for the idea. Keep them coming.

S_W_Bausch · Dec 29, 2010

I have an affection for Indian food, the ancient philosophies of India, etc. I wouldn't mind visiting India.

What I cannot understand is how a grand and glorious culture has not rebounded "from the British", if we want to blame the British for the problems of India. There is another group that trashed India, but it wouldn't be P.C. to discuss.

Transparency International doesn't think much of doing business with India; too corrupt.

Marsh · Dec 29, 2010

robots....

To the Original poster, Have you checked with member bhasins to see if he has a few trainloads of used stuff to unload? just saying, he buys a lot of stuff in the US.

Prasham · Dec 30, 2010

Firstly.... I AM OVERWHELMED with the responses, especially 3t3d. Thanks keep pouring your suggestions.

Stuart Caruk said:
I've been using refurbished fanuc robots for years and have yet to have an unscheduled maintenance event. The mean time between failures is quite high in most industrial robots. For machine tending you don't need the latest and greatest. All you need is a reliable way to move parts around. That just happens to be a task that robots excel at.

Thanks for the suggestion stuart.

Tonytn36 said:
Please define "Low Cost".....

As low as it can get

... Jokes apart I am looking for something other than the standard Robot. Something similar to what 3t3d has posted.

S_W_Bausch said:
Get a villager, pay him in rice and chickpeas, he can sleep under the machine.

Those days are long gone. Do you believe if I say, I've advertised about a dozen times in last one year and an employment board is hanging on my factory's main door since last 2 years? But only rarely someone comes to get information on what's being offered? This is the condition even after wages have increased atleast by 50%.

3t3d said:
Prasham,

Take a look at some of these videos for ideas on simple low cost ideas.
The first one uses the gang tool slide already on the lathe for the automation.

YouTube - Track loader with live tooling on OmniTurn GT-75

Here is a little more complexity.

YouTube - Automatic loader with turn around station on OmniTurn cnc lathe

This looks really simple,
YouTube - Automatic loader on CNC OmniTurn lathe

Many more ideas from them, keep looking

A used industrial robot may not cost more than $5,000 to $10,000 depending on what you find.
Someone told me a used welding robot may not have too much wear as compared to a palletizing robot.

Building some of the ideas in the videos can be for whatever you can scrounge up, and will depend on how dedicated you can make it. In other words, how parts in a row will you run?
the Robot can be simply reprogrammed for the next part, dedicated tooling might be cheaper, but specific for each part.

Can you tell us more details?

Thanks for suggesting these fantastic videos. I am really amazed. Shall post more about the jobs I do in a separate post as posting it in this may make it a bit clumsy.

S_W_Bausch said:
....My guess is a $500 used robot will be dutied as a $50,000 robot, and that is a non-starter.

Its not completely true.

S_W_Bausch said:
Transparency International doesn't think much of doing business with India; too corrupt.

Everyone isn't same & hence I suggest please don't generalize. I've had bad experience with suppliers from US & EU but it happens with all the countries.

Marsh said:
To the Original poster, Have you checked with member bhasins to see if he has a few trainloads of used stuff to unload? just saying, he buys a lot of stuff in the US.

Nope Shall contact him. Thanks for the suggestion.
UPDATE: Bhasins's profile shows he's banned, so I can't really contact him. Does anyone have his email address?

Prasham · Dec 30, 2010

Currently we are manufacturing items similar to bearing races. Currently we are finishing the jobs in 2 setups. These are manufactured from Seamless Pipes and mostly have identical lengths. Unlike bearings, both OD & ID have numerous steps which makes clamping a bit difficult compared to bearings.

I shall try to post sketches of the items we manufacture so that you may get better idea and suggest accordingly.

Tonytn36 · Dec 30, 2010

Are you doing these bar-fed, or are they blanks to length? This makes a difference in what can be used for automation.

Prasham · Dec 30, 2010

We use blanks as a) rounds/pipes we use are not of the prime quality and hence have some surface related problems & hence make them unsuitable for bar feeding & b) we have only 2 turning centers and hence directly feeding the bars would lead to pretty longer cycle times.

BTW what is that feeder in Video No. 2 & 3 called? Is it called Magazine Feeder? While I googled for Magazine feeder I found only Bar Feeder pages. Please help.

Tonytn36 · Dec 30, 2010

For things like video 2, you'll have as much or more money in that as a robot, unless you can do the electrical design and plc programming / machine integration yourself.
Do you need to turn the parts around?
What diameters are the parts? (raw stock and finished)

Prasham · Dec 30, 2010

Currently we are clamping on OD in 1st setup while in 2nd setup we are clamping on ID (which is finished during first setup). So it might not be possible to do both setups in the same machine and thus I don't require to turn around the component. I hope I have made myself clear.

surplusjohn · Dec 31, 2010

Prasham. I am curious about your labor situation. Are you in a city with very low un-employment? what wages do you offer and how do those compare to the average? Where is everyone working? Do you have an all male work force?
I am just generally curious but also curious how costs stack up and compare. Last year I was working on a project where I was sourcing artist paint brushes. [none made in the US] I looked at Germany, China and India. A company in India was quoting prices, including shipping via post, that were so incredibly low I could not believe the were per piece and not per dozen. Now the quality was totally un-acceptable but they were still paint brushes! So you have a labor intensive item that is selling in small quantity wholesale lots for a crazy low price. So that indicates that there must still be lots of very low cost workers available somewhere in India.
I once sat next to an Indian Woman on a train trip and she was telling me about her servants. Driver, Housekeeper and child care person. All full time, and pay was 110 bucks a month. Then she explained that not only did they live on this but they had servants!

I have no idea what your customs are there, but one idea to expand your work force is to hire woman part time. Years ago we had a labor intensive business and always had trouble keeping workers. We had pretty good success hiring mothers who wanted to work while the kids were in school, these turned out to be very good workers in general, but of course you had to be flexible.

3t3d · Dec 31, 2010

Prasham said:
Currently we are clamping on OD in 1st setup while in 2nd setup we are clamping on ID (which is finished during first setup). So it might not be possible to do both setups in the same machine and thus I don't require to turn around the component. I hope I have made myself clear.

If you are clamping on the ID, and turning the OD, then I don't see any (reasonable) way to clamp on the OD with the same chuck, and still work the ID. Also, the PLC (control) on the lathe will want to see ID or OD chucking..

If you have a sub-spindle lathe, then ID and OD on the same machine is a good match. And the spindles can pass the part between them.

Without a sub-spindle you will be only turning the ID or the OD on one lathe at a time.
The turn around attachment was useful if you need to reach both ends of the part, and are working just the ID or just the OD.

It sounds like you are going to be runnign ID work on one machine, then running the OD on the next machine, or setting up the first machine to finish the job, on the OD later.
In those cases, the simplest parts feeder will work pretty well.

What will it cost? If you hire an engineering firm, it will cost a lot!
If you are really good at scrounging up odd bits and can imagine how to make something work in ways it was never intended, maybe as low as zero.

The real question is how critical is any downtime?
The cost of the solution will not affect the reliability, rather the ability to find the right parts, and make them work well together will determine how reliable it will be...

Prasham · Dec 31, 2010

surplusjohn said:
Prasham. I am curious about your labor situation. Are you in a city with very low un-employment? what wages do you offer and how do those compare to the average? Where is everyone working? Do you have an all male work force?
...
...
...
...
...
We had pretty good success hiring mothers who wanted to work while the kids were in school, these turned out to be very good workers in general, but of course you had to be flexible.

As I said earlier, those days are long gone. We pay around 2500 to unskilled labourers while skilled labourers fetch as much as 6000. These are at par with most companies in the vicinity. Yes at present the workforce is all male and we are planning to introduce females for simpler jobs but here in India we have lot of ridiculous labour rules which makes it very difficult to employ females.

3t3d said:
If you are clamping on the ID, and turning the OD, then I don't see any (reasonable) way to clamp on the OD with the same chuck, and still work the ID. Also, the PLC (control) on the lathe will want to see ID or OD chucking..

If you have a sub-spindle lathe, then ID and OD on the same machine is a good match. And the spindles can pass the part between them.

Without a sub-spindle you will be only turning the ID or the OD on one lathe at a time.
The turn around attachment was useful if you need to reach both ends of the part, and are working just the ID or just the OD.

It sounds like you are going to be runnign ID work on one machine, then running the OD on the next machine, or setting up the first machine to finish the job, on the OD later.
In those cases, the simplest parts feeder will work pretty well.

What will it cost? If you hire an engineering firm, it will cost a lot!
If you are really good at scrounging up odd bits and can imagine how to make something work in ways it was never intended, maybe as low as zero.

The real question is how critical is any downtime?
The cost of the solution will not affect the reliability, rather the ability to find the right parts, and make them work well together will determine how reliable it will be...

I am in touch with few experts of automation and hydraulics. I know a few companies who are using similar feeders. Shall get in touch with them in a few days and lets see what turns out.

From the videos you've posted, I've figured that automatic loading isn't a big problem, unloading is. We manufacture components that aren't grinded so any dent/mark that gets developed on it makes it unusable.

Low Cost Machine Tending

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