Thread: Any words of wisdom from Graziano SAG 14 owners?

Greetings,
It has been a very long time since my last post on PM. I want to clearly state, that I am not a machinist by trade and know how to operate machinery only as a means to an end.
To preface my post, I am a gunsmith and have learned how to operate equipment well enough to do my work, so please forgive my ignorance. I have torn down, cleaned and repaired some small lathes
over the years, so I can follow most of the posts here, but now I am poised to take a stab at what will hopefully be my "last" lathe. I finally feel that my import 14x30 (bought used 3 years ago),
lacks the stiffness and accuracy, although it has been adequate, but I always hoped for a stouter unit. I will be looking at a Graziano SAG 14 with the 60" between centers bed. I had studied up on
the SAG 12 about 3 years ago and felt it was a very likely candidate, but there relative scarcity and prices, kept them out of reach, when I started rebuilding my garage shop. When the SAG 14
popped up, I quickly did some research to find out more about that variant. I found that the few opinions running around were positive and never heard of any weaknesses. I know that the
elctromagnetic clutches are discussed regarding wear/failure issues with some regularity for the SAG 12, but no one mentions the SAG 14 having any recurring problems. I will be going to see it over
the weekend and would be grateful for any items that I should focus on particularly. I will look the unit over for any obvious problems and the machine is under power, so if it sounds like a coffee can
full of rocks, I will know to run far away. I am not looking for a mint condition lathe, but I am wanting a solid serviceable unit that will hopefully be the last one I need to buy. I am not afraid of
working on it, if something needs attention and I will do a thorough job of routine maintenance before I put it into service in my garage shop. I will be glad to hear any and all comments about these
units and look forward to having people that are skilled as machinists chime in. As a gunsmith, I know that what the masses accept as gospel as to how great or horrible a given firearm is, often times
does not reflect reality. For the same reason, I am coming here for the information and opinions of those with more knowledge and experience in this field. I suppose I should clarify, that I realize I am
definitely looking at an example of over-kill if I get this unit, but I follow the old adage of better to have and not need, than to need and not have. Thanks in advance.

Mark

The 14 doesn't have the electric clutches, just two mechanical ones. These can give trouble on high mileage machines and are a hassle to work on and find parts for. That aside, my 180 (metric 14) is in pretty good shape mechanically, despite lots of use and abuse in previous lives. Someone even broke the damn tailstock casting, but all gears and bearings are fine. So they are built tough. Bed wear is the only major issue remaining on mine, and that's not easy/cheap to fix. Gear whine is normal from the headstock. The spindle bearings are big dollars, but again, virtually indestructible.

Lofty,
That seems to be the feeling I have gotten from what little reference there is. That is what I have been looking for is a confirmation that these are as good as they seem. I have watched and the average price has hovered between 6-8K and this one is quite a bit less, I will have to hire a mover to get it here, but it seems like it will be worth it if I buy it.
Thanks for the input

Mark

As with any purchase of a used machine tool actual condition of the unit in question is key. There are good ones and bad ones. However, from an overall perspective, the SAG 14 was/is a fine machine. We bought one for our shop about 1990 and used it till '98 when we down-sized and got rid of it. I'd jump at the chance to get another one if the condition was decent.

The machine we purchased came out of a production shop in Ontario and had significant wear in the first 18" of the bed. We had the bed reground and also took the time then to replace the headstock bearings--pricey but the seller split the cost with us. If I remember correctly by the time we were done we had about $11,000 invested in it but after proper and careful bedding and setup you could turn a 24" long shaft with virtually no measurable taper.

I loved that machine and I still kick myself for ever letting it go. The really sad part is that the fellow we sold it to had great plans for it and I thought it was going to a good home but the last time I saw it--about ten years after we sold it-the lathe was sitting in his yard wrapped in a tarp. I could have cried when I saw that and I sure as h*ll don't want to know what happened to it after. We look after our stuff and if I had kept that lathe it would still be sitting in our shop waiting to become the centre-piece of my soon to be home shop...

LKeithR,
I guess I keep waiting for someone to crop up and suddenly claim that it will burst into flames, my hair will turn white, babies will be born naked and rust will plague me to my dying day. I am very fortunate to have even these couple of feedbacks and I thank you. I will be looking at the machine early tomorrow morning and from my previous discussion on the phone with the owner, he states that the machine will hold to .0002 accuracy. I would be lying through my teeth if I said I could really test that claim, so I will have to just have a comfortable feeling when I check the machine out. In my world, most of the time, I am delighted to see consistency to .001. I just want to have a machine that will remove any excuses for error, if something goes out of whack, I want to be certain it is the loose nut operating the machine. This is is how I work with firearms, remove the mechanical excuses and you are left with the failings of the operator. I am willing to train myself in the full range of operating the machine correctly, so that when I am faced with the need of those various features, I won't harm my equipment. I get so much enjoyment out of being around large examples of precision engineering, that is why I feel like the luckiest SOB every day when I go to work. My way to make a living is as an engineering technician on 25mm, 76mm and 5" naval cannons. I get to work on them as a troubleshooter and inspector all day long and then get to work on firearms when I get home. We have one gent at work that will retire next year and he is the only one that does any of our machining tasks (he is also a tech). I hope to be able to carry the torch when he moves on. I will never match his skill level, but I want to be able to do the work he has done for 40 years, so that we can keep from farming the work out. I just finally made the final leap for a mill when I upgrades from a Clausing to a 9x42 Bridgeport at the beginning of the year, so now I am itching to have a lathe of similar scale. I will let you know how tomorrow comes out.
Thanks again

Mark

Well, I pulled the trigger and said I would take it. I was amazed at the world of difference between the Enco I have and the Graziano. Crawling around that machine, listening to it run and looking inside the gear box, I was blown away by the simplicity of operation. Everything was laid out in such a logical manner, the way it was assembled and the number of standard features, I realized that I have never been around a unit of this caliber. I realize that there are makes which others will agree are superior, but as true as those statements may be, I have never had the pleasure of being around them, so this has set a personal high water mark for me. It will be a few weeks before I have the remainder of the funds generated and then I can make arrangements to move it. I will look forward to posting pictures when I get it here.

Mark

My 14 has never given any problem with the mechanical clutches. I LOVE being able to ease up to a shoulder when turning or threading. The Graz is also great for threading where you leave the half nut engaged and reverse the spindle, particularly due to the clutch. The tailstock (graduated in 0.001") is also as smooth as butter even after over 40 years of use. Us Graz owners are a small group, but we love 'em!

706jim,
Thanks for the input, I can hardly wait to get it here. I have my work cut out for me before that, I have to sell off my Enco, sell a little benchtop horizontal mill and relocate/rewire my Bridgeport. I will also have to move around two Vidmar cabinets and find a nook for my TIG welder. I am going nuts wandering around my tiny little garage (ten pounds in a five pound bag) with a tape measure trying to come up with a sensible layout that keeps tools in logical locations to quickly get to stuff. It may sound like whining, but I can hardly wait to start moving stuff around. I did not mention before, that this guy has two of them and we ran them side by side so that I saw that every feature operated as well on the one he is selling as it did on the one he is keeping (definitely not for sale). I am still shopping around for a good price on moving the unit down here, so if anyone has a recommendation in the SoCal area, please chime in. I will hopefully have it here within the next 3-4 weeks.

Mark

Mark,
Glad to hear that you bought the Graziano. I bought a Sag 14 about 18 months ago for my home shop and so far I don't have any regrets. I bought mine from a guy in SoCal that had a 40" and a 60" for sale. I bought the 40" because I have a very small shop. He also had another 40" that he had been using for many years and was keeping. I had my machine transported from his shop to my home in Sacramento by Tom Dunkel of Inland Safe & Machinery Moving (951-901-5082). It wasn't cheap, but was less expensive than the other movers I check with and they did a good job. Good luck and I know you're gonna love using that lathe.
Ted

Ted,
Here is a chuckle for you, I am almost 100% certain that this is the other lathe that you went to see (Santa Ana). Stan described the other lathe and the fact that it got shipped north over a year ago. He said that he had tried to get the buyer to go for the 60" because he felt it was the better machine, but the buyer insisted that he needed to stay with the shorter unit. Do you have a follow rest by any chance? he said the buyer got a bunch of tooling with the machine, I would like to copy one for myself. I am delighted to have crossed paths with you (if you are that same person). If you have a manual, would you be willing to loan it for copying? I am glad to hear from another satisfied Graziano customer. It's time for me to turn into a pumpkin.

Mark

There's a pdf manual online somewhere. It came up in 'general' recently. Here's the follow rest.

Lofty,
Thanks for the drawing of the follow rest. I saw a picture of one next to a steady rest somewhere else that actually had a third bearing surface, that had me puzzled. The one you show looks a bit more conventional. I will see what the search feature pulls up, but everything I have seen is people wanting $50-65 for a copy (nobody mentions if it is in color), not an original.
Thanks

Mark

Mark,
I kind of thought that you may have gotten the lathe from Stan. I did in fact buy mine from him. I looked at both lathes very closely, including opening the gear head, and personally thought both were in pretty nice condition. I did not get a steady or follow rest with the lathe. I have since purchased a follow rest off of eBay that I believe was from a Clausing lathe and did a little machining to it and made an adapter plate for it to attach to the carriage like the Graziano unit would. I am still looking for a steady rest, but will probably make one myself. (sounds like another fun project) I do have the manual for the lathe and could copy it for you if you aren't able to find it on-line. Also, there is a guy on eBay that sells the manuals if that interests you. (just do a search under "Graziano") Where are you located ?
Ted

Ted,
What a small world, I am down here in San Diego, so I am only looking at about 85 miles for delivery (still not cheap). I have seen the Ebay listings for manuals, but I get a feeling that they are copies, so I need to send an e-mail to find out for sure. I will gladly pay that price for an original in color, but if somebody just copied it in B/W at Staples, I will pass. I will be busy, trying to pull together and sifting through my tooling to see what I have that will work on this unit. I know that I don't have a single MT4 accesory for the tailstock, so some centers and a drill chuck, will be on the wish list. I will also probably downsize from the 10" 3 jaw chuck eventually, but I can deal with that later.

Mark

I think you will find the manuals on ebay are indeed copies, and not very good ones at that. The fold-out sheets of the original are downsized (at least for the SAG 12 manual from the same source) to fit on std 8.5 x 11 and the resolution used was not high enough to make the drawing nomenclature readable....

Originally Posted by Crank

706jim,
I am still shopping around for a good price on moving the unit down here, so if anyone has a recommendation in the SoCal area, please chime in. I will hopefully have it here within the next 3-4 weeks.

Mark

Don't you (or a good friend) have a vehicle with a decent trailer hitch on it? For things like this I rent a U-Haul 6x12 open trailer - that's how I got my SAG 12 home from the freight terminal and how I moved a Lagun vertical mill (about 2800 lbs) from Austin to Dallas..... If not, wouldn't it be cheaper to rent a large SUV with hitch to pull it than to hire someone to haul it?

BTW, it's quite a bit cheaper with U-Haul to get the trailer at home and pull it there to pick up whatever than to rent one way. Here in Dallas the trailer is only $30 for 24hrs use "locally".

TT,
Thanks for the info, that's what I expected. If someone would be willing to loan an original. One option would be to take it to one of those printing centers and pay the money for a high resolution color copy. Everyone is trying to get rich off these manuals without making them quality. As an example, I priced out color coying at Kinko's, it would cost approximately $125.00 to copy an 80 page manual and they can print up to 11"x17", so the fold out schematics would be full size IIRC. With that said, Would anyone be brave enough to loan an original? My other option is to buy a quality scanner and scan the pages into a document that can be shared for free, if I do that, I am definitely going to p**s off the people trying to sell crappy copies and I will sleep better at night.

Mark

P.S. My compliments on the incredible work you are doing on that SAG 12! I still don't understand what exactly the Turcite is for (in place of wipers?) , but as I said, I have a lot to learn.

TT,
You are fast on your fingers, I finish reading one post and replying and you already get me again. My problem is the on-load and off-load, getting it in and out of the trailer is the problem. I moved my Bridgeport around on round stock and know how easy the moving is (comparatively)once it is on the ground, but I had the benefit of a forklift for that move to load it and a hair-raising off-load with an engine hoist. I don't know if I want to do that again. No one around here has one of those trailers that lowers the bed to rent or hire. I am all ears for a suggestion on how to load/unload it.

Mark

Here's the link to the manual:
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=547fe...96ECFD561F!164
You will find it better than the photocopy that costs $100 from a well known UK supplier.

Originally Posted by Crank

P.S. My compliments on the incredible work you are doing on that SAG 12! I still don't understand what exactly the Turcite is for (in place of wipers?) , but as I said, I have a lot to learn.

The Turcite is used to build up the saddle after the bed is ground so it is at the same height it was originally: Check out the SAG 12 Restoration thread on this forum for more info.

"No one around here has one of those trailers that lowers the bed to rent or hire. I am all ears for a suggestion on how to load/unload it. "

I was faced with that problem initially, but solved the problem by building this:



It has a 10 ft beam so it can straddle the trailer and the jacks on either end are 3 Ton - I did a write-up for Home Shop Machinist and it should appear around the end of the year. I originially built it to handle a 15 x 50 Colchester (3300lbs) which it does quite well. It resides in my shop over that machine and thus does not take up but a little additional room.