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The beauty of Schaublin W20 collets....

Milacron

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Just a note my Schaublin 102N uses W25 collets and it seemed odd to me that Schaublin, even in later years, offered the machines in both W20 and W25 versions. I mean why not just eliminate the W20 and stick with W25 going forward ? It was explained the main reason for this was to match to "legacy" 102 lathes that were W20 spindles.

But after getting in the 102N-VM with W20 spindle I found the W20 collets to be simply more pleasant to deal with...easier to insert, quicker to screw in position, less force required to close them, and easier to remove than the W25 (or 5C for that matter, like on a Hardinge)

So, if you don't need capacity beyond what the W20 offers, I recommend the little buggers....very nice collets ! :cheers:
 
FWIW, another advantage of the W20 spindle I didn't realize until recently is that it is easier to remove...like for changing the drive belt or bearings. Being smaller it is easier to tap out and put back in place.
 
Plus the w20s versatility to be used in my lathe spindle for work holding as well as my mill spindle for tool holding. The buttress thread is so much more effective at applying greater force to grip while also able to eject quickly. I'm not equipped with w25 collets to know the difference but am with the old wade collets that have similar geometry to 5Cs with a buttress thread. Don't understand why the 5Cs utiized such a fine thread that I've figured would strip much easier than the buttress.
 
Less common Schaublin L20 collets have same dimensions but are about twice as long. From my experience the extra length gives better accuracy. I think those were originally made for Emco lathes, but can be used (sometimes with small modifications) on some other machines designed for the W20 collets.

L-20-collet.jpg
 
Fine collets exept those wierd pitch
Just to protect their market and get a premium for their spares
The Swiss were very strong in using non standard items like bearings and such Wierd threads not makeable on a conventional lathe And I hate that
Then you had to buy the original parts for a arm and a leg and one of your kids
The Germans did not do that

Peter
 
The Swiss were very strong in using non standard items like bearings and
I'm in the process of replacing the spindle bearings in a Schaublin 102N-VM lathe and they are standard (NSK and Fafnir on mine, but replacements don't have to be the same make) ABEC 7 bearings. One is slightly unusual with 25 degree (as opposed to more common 15 degree) outer race but found both sealed in plastic and original box NOS on eBay.

==================

(on edit) Just finished up the bearing change... OMG...what a difference ! Sooooo....quiet now, even at 3K RPM...:cloud9:
 
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Fine collets exept those wierd pitch
Just to protect their market and get a premium for their spares

Peter

This is a common fairy tale and complete nonsense. You shouldn't think in (decimal) fractions, but in ratios. And then you see that 1.666mm is simply 5/3. So if the lead screw is 4mm pitch, a double gear train with 5/3 x 5/20 wheels gives 25/60x4mm. Which 100/60 = 5/3 = 1.666. In fact a single set with 25/60 will give you the same result. Nearly each lathe with change gears can do this if not built-in, like the Schaublin 125. If you have an imperial lead screw you need an extra 100/127 combi.

Charles
 
What I find very strange is the W25 pitch which is quoted as 1.693mm. Not the pitch itself (as this is 15TPI), but why suddenly this imperial pitch?

Charles
 
let me correct my first message: 5/3 and 5/20 are no realistic wheels of course, But as long as you are able to make a gear train with an overall ratio of 5/12 (like the 25/60 single set) it will be OK. I would guess that nearly every lathe with change gears can do this. For example a standard gear set for a Schaublin 102VM and the 120VM (which are the same) gives more than 400 possible combinations to get 1.666mm with a single or double gear set.

Charles
 
Don't understand why the 5Cs utiized such a fine thread that I've figured would strip much easier than the buttress

I think that even from the very early days, Hardinge (cataract) collets were designed to be used with a lever closer. Though draw-tubes were available and common, probably for economy. Thread wear with a lever closer is minimal to nil; & the fine threads make it easier to tune the pull on the lever closer.

smt
 
Thread wear with a lever closer is minimal to nil; & the fine threads make it easier to tune the pull on the lever closer.

smt


Hmmm,Having had to replace a 5c tube on a turret lathe because it was worn out perhaps disproves this theory of minimal thread wear. And yes, I realize a turret lathes collet closer would undergo many more duty cycles than an engine or bench lathe but wouldn't wear occur whether due to the action of screwing it in and out or applying force via a collet closer?
 
Hmmm,Having had to replace a 5c tube on a turret lathe because it was worn out perhaps disproves this theory of minimal thread wear. And yes, I realize a turret lathes collet closer would undergo many more duty cycles than an engine or bench lathe but wouldn't wear occur whether due to the action of screwing it in and out or applying force via a collet closer?

Interesting.
What i have seen in Hardinge "handscrew machines" is the rockers (faces of levers) wear, as does the face of the spider they bear against, over extreme use. Emphasis on extreme, I have actually only seen one bad enough to need re-grinding, did that for another shop. The drawtube was fine.
Not so much the screw-to-tighten type draw tubes. But then my sample size is small, 1/2 dozen or so; & I really don't know the history of any.

Everything wears with use. But presumably a thread and the engagement length are designed with some safety margin over permanent yield at max likely tension. So actually, the thread should not wear from straight pull forces.

A draw tube is a whole 'nother situation. Frictional loads on the threads and tube go up increasingly with tension, and all kinds of forces are present to try to gall, erode, and abrade both as they are tightened.

smt
 
it would seem your sample size of examples is larger than mine. Ironically, the turret lathe my worn 5c drawtube was on is a Wade 94. Wade offered both 5c and their own 8W options. Perhaps Wades 5cs were not on par with their own... I did walk away from a Hardinge turret for sale at a luthier that had seen so much use that there were noticeable impressions in the spindle bore where the collets pull in to. Who knows if the draw tube had to be replaced on that one. It would seem like the tube on these are all left in a soft state where as the collets are of course, hardened, making the tube the replaceable part.
 
It would seem like the tube on these are all left in a soft state where as the collets are of course, hardened, making the tube the replaceable part.

'Nother point of interest- I have the impression (without going out and filing one) that you are correct and the drawtubes on lever closers for Hardinge 4c & 5c might not be as hard as the collets.

So it is interesting that for their dividing heads, they made the screw-to-tighten draw tubes "glass hard". (3 in this sample size)

smt
 
To me w20 is perfect!

I got two schaublin 102 with w20, Aciera F3 and schaublin 12 all with w20 in spindels and dividingheads.

Collets , tooling, arborheads and chucks can freely be moved around betwen machines.
 
I have a Schaublin 102N with W25 spindle. I used to have a Habegger 102 with W20 spindle. I still have some W20 collets and I have no trouble using them with a Schaublin W20/W25 adapter. You do need to have one drawbar in W25 and one in W20 to use that adapter, but it works.

To me the advantage of W25 is that in the U.S. having the ability to chuck up to 1" or 7/8" stock or parts in a collet is a big advantage. So much raw stock is available in 1" dia. Also that puts you very close to the capacity of the 5C collets.

The big advantage of W20 is that it is much easier to acquire used collets, machinable collets and closers. I had to go to great lengths to get a fairly complete tooling package in W25.
 
I know this is a zombie thread but just to add in case anyone finds this searching the Schaublin 135 (and presumably the other screw cutting Schaublins) will cut a proper 1.666mm pitch. You just have to swap one of the gears (see the manual for a full list pitches that aren't all shown on the front plate)

IMG_20171013_113723318.jpg

IMG_20171012_105628589.jpg
 
I know this is a zombie thread but just to add in case anyone finds this searching the Schaublin 135 (and presumably the other screw cutting Schaublins) will cut a proper 1.666mm pitch. You just have to swap one of the gears (see the manual for a full list pitches that aren't all shown on the front plate)

View attachment 210008

View attachment 210009

Same for example with my ancient imperial Kerry.
1.6666 pitch is right there but all the combinations won't fit in the front plate. (almost 400 "metric" combinations)
I did excel file where they all are listed, often there is something "close enough" if I'm too lazy to change the current gearing.
 
Don't understand why the 5Cs utiized such a fine thread that I've figured would strip much easier than the buttress.

While I appreciate the W20 may have a courser buttress I've never heard of anyone ever stripping the 5C thread ... Maybe others would comment but I think it would be one in a million+

John :typing:

NB: I gave up Schaublin W20 / W25 / and F16 for Hardinge 5C's
 








 
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