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Cazenuve 360 HBX for sale.... ugly but in great shape (sort of)....and cheap...

Milacron

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Location
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From little 'ol me. In surprisingly good condition considering how ugly it is... except for the classic drive oil leak and the unclassic non functioning drive motor. What kills me is I was running the lathe thru all the paces..spindle speeds, feeds, threading, etc in preparation for making a video of same when the damn motor ceased to turn. If it had run just one more time would have made a world of difference in folks confidence that it really does sound and run great.

Cazeneuve HBX 360 Lathe with Starwheel Tailstock | eBay

I should think the tailstock alone is worth the opening bid. Certainly the tailstock and the steady rest anyway...plus a nearly pristine genuine Aloris tool post.
 
Everytime the big starwheel from the tailstock looks like a design-failure to me.(positioned on the wrong site) Or is it not that bad?
 
Everytime the big starwheel from the tailstock looks like a design-failure to me.(positioned on the wrong site) Or is it not that bad?
Seeing as I may be one of the few people on Earth that has both a Schaublin and Cazenueve with starwheel tailstock, you've come to the right place for that question m'man ;)

The answer is that the Schaublin starwheel is superior both in position and smoothness of action...however, the Cazeneuve version is not as awkward to use as it might appear and is still waaaaaaaay better than a standard screw tailstock. But true the Schaublin version is superior....with one exception....the Schaublin hand spokes will not allow the tailstock to get as close to the carriage....the Cazeneuve spokes, being at an angle on the backside, do allow one to get closer in. In reality the quill travel on the Schaublin is so great that getting closer is never an issue in my experience. But I can imagine senarios where that might favor the Cazeneuve design. I can imagine Cazeneuve salesmen at trades shows touting that feature as superior to the Schaublin.
 
You turn the steering wheel and the spindle moves......

I'm guessing not a starwheel type.

But it has a great depth micrometer ring graduated in thousandths.
 
But it has a great depth micrometer ring graduated in thousandths.
Yeah, well, depth accuracy is not the point. The point is it is infinitely more pleasant and way faster to drill with a tailstock quill that moves via rack and pinion rather than screw. Also easier to drill larger by using the second speed that mutiplies your force. The value in that lathe is the tailstock and steady rest.

Note there has been a pristine* HBX-360 on eBay for some time at $7,500 that has not sold...but it has conventional screw tailstock. It would have sold in a day or two if it had this tailstock.

----------------

*I say pristine as it sure looks nice but as I recall the backlash in that one is actually more than mine.
 
Just curious: what is the noise-level of this Caz? When running at lets say 1000 RPM , is the main drive belt-driven only? ( just like the larger Schaublins)

PS: pristine condition means for me in almost the same condition as when left the factory
 
Just an off topic and somewhat amusing comment from my wife:

"So what does that thing (your lathe) do?"

My answer:

"Makes round things."

It's been a standing joke around our house for the past year!
 
Just curious: what is the noise-level of this Caz? When running at lets say 1000 RPM , is the main drive belt-driven only? ( just like the larger Schaublins)

PS: pristine condition means for me in almost the same condition as when left the factory


No that would be "As new...." I mean what would be the difference?

Charles
 
Just curious: what is the noise-level of this Caz? When running at lets say 1000 RPM , is the main drive belt-driven only? ( just like the larger Schaublins)

PS: pristine condition means for me in almost the same condition as when left the factory
It's actually a little quietier than a 135...way quietier than a 160. Same deal, direct drive and backgear. Neat part is you control the speed just by pulling a little lever right there attached to the apron.. lever moves with the carriage in other words...as opposed to Schaublin where you have to turn a big wheel fixed position on the left side of base. Cazeneuve had one over Schaublin on that feature.

Sheesh, now that you remind me of that maybe I don't want to sell it after all... I forgot just how nice the speed change feature is until now.

Re pristine, I meant the one on eBay looks pristine...might not be really...haven't seen it in real life.
 
It's actually a little quietier than a 135...way quietier than a 160. Same deal, direct drive and backgear. Neat part is you control the speed just by pulling a little lever right there attached to the apron.. lever moves with the carriage in other words...as opposed to Schaublin where you have to turn a big wheel fixed position on the left side of base. Cazeneuve had one over Schaublin on that feature.

Sheesh, now that you remind me of that maybe I don't want to sell it after all... I forgot just how nice the speed change feature is until now.

Re pristine, I meant the one on eBay looks pristine...might not be really...haven't seen it in real life.

If You-Toob vids with sound are to be believed an HBX-360-BC is way to Hell and gone noisier than a Monarch 10EE on Solid-State drive + steroids + ripple-filter.

Then again, so is a common electric can-opener, so BFD

:)

More when I have gotten the money into Don's hand, have them side by side, see to the scorched motor wiring, and apply the Sound Pressure Level meter to each. Since I have one of those...
 
Sheesh, now that you remind me of that maybe I don't want to sell it after all... I forgot just how nice the speed change feature is until now.

Too late, Mate - I consider it bought.. ah, well it has been "a while", and you've probably been (re)seduced by a(nother) Schaublin.

:)

and.. not to put too fine a point on it, HBX speed change isn't so nice if the hydraulic pump that drives it is .. what's that French term to stay in-context, ah "hors de combat"

No Fear.

For ease of field maintenance, my view is it should have been a separate item from the very outset, ditto coolant pump. "Plan A" is that both will become so.
 
It would be interesting to hear how this all works out. Rick Berner, Berner Scientific user slimfab, had two of these in his shop. He demonstrated one of them for me. Cool machine with interesting features but the hydraulic noise was offending. He said that was typical and something you had to put up with given the hydraulic drive. The machine was in primo condition like everything in his shop so I assumed he was right about that. Too bad because they seem nice, especially that star wheel tailstock as discussed but all that racket was a killer for me.
 
It would be interesting to hear how this all works out. Rick Berner, Berner Scientific user slimfab, had two of these in his shop. He demonstrated one of them for me. Cool machine with interesting features but the hydraulic noise was offending. He said that was typical and something you had to put up with given the hydraulic drive. The machine was in primo condition like everything in his shop so I assumed he was right about that. Too bad because they seem nice, especially that star wheel tailstock as discussed but all that racket was a killer for me.

'Small World' then. ISTR having some of his optical goods, though probably off eBay?

HBX sound level... as mentioned, went wandering 'round the You Tube and found them all sounding as if there was an air-raid siren in there trying to get out. Even made a failing MOPAR power-steering pump sound quiet, and that ain't easy.

I have David Clark & MSA "ear muffs"...

Not hard to correct at the source, actually.

Probably obvious to most folks by now that I've neither need nor inclination to 'make chips', but rather make tests, make experiments, and make changes.

(Also make excuses...)

:)

But then..... there ARE some spare Reliance Dinosaur-Current critters slithering about underfoot here - some with top RPM's of 4500, 5000, 5500. And they are 'Ninja stealth' quiet - at least by comparison...
 
OK .. 'nuf fooling around. Just kicked-off a check in payment.

Hope to advise how the load & move from Coastal Dogpatch {1] to Virginia goes.

Bill

[1] Temporarily. Elevation above mean sea level is not much more than wishful thinking. Won't take much more sea-level rise and it could become the Dogpatch Archipelago.
 
I'll start a new thread when I actually have this lathe in its new home..

Meanwhile.. trying to flesh-out what to me was a mystery - why it had not sold already a year or two ago..

A) The 'smoked' main-drive motor: Had anyone bothered to contact Don, they'd have found that the motor itself may not be damaged at all.

Seems it came in his door with either a soft-start or static phase converter gadget attached. He has sources of useful 3-Phase, no need of such crutches.

The sparks 'drama' occurred when he tried to bypass that device at the motor's peckerhead so he could make a video of the HBX actually running. There's a better than even chance the sparks affected only some shorted leads, not the motor windings. Even so, the way it is mounted makes conversion to some other motor not all that difficult.

B) The missing parts of the 'power' option on the tailstock:

Henri Bruet, "the younger" did the original design of the HB lathes as his University Graduate Thesis. Clever ideas would have earned academic points from Professors, whether they made sense in a real-world production lathe or not.

OTOH, as his Dad, Henri Bruet "the elder" was the works manager who took over Cazeneuve and carried it through the Great Depression, then World War two, we can presume neither Bruet was lacking in practical experience.

This device, I'd rate as borderline useless, and have told Don that had the previous owner not removed it already, I'd do so myself.

The issue is that it is geared 2:1. If one needs to power the TS ram into and out of even a two-inch deep bore, the carriage has to have favourable location and travel enough to move FOUR inches. On a lathe with but 30" or a bit less c-to-c, before HS workholding AND TS toolholding is deducted, that happy coincidence is not often assured.

Usually better to drill directly from the carriage, TS simply slid out of the way..

C) Proprietary combined hydraulic pump and coolant pump missing from the arse-end of the final drive motor:

It should probably never have been there in the first place. It should certainly not have been combined. ONE hydraulic pump was not a good idea.

Problem here is that the single hydraulic pump fed all of:

1) The costly, superprecision spindle bearings.
2) The 'special' carriage and its complex geartrain
3) The recirculating ball, not threaded, leadscrew/surfacing drive via it's enclosed sealed, telescoping tube.
4) The actuators for the Vari-Drive sheave movement mechanism.
5) Other points in selective geartrains

What is wrong with this picture is the 'fretting corrosion' AKA friction wear, occurs at many points. Leaks can occur at even more.

The shared dual-use hydraulic-actuation + lubrication circulating system cannot guarantee that the precious spindle bearings are not put at risk from particulates originating in the cheaper seats.

At a minimum, the critical spindle bearing lube circulation should be isolated to its own pump, reservoir, filter, and plumbing.

Better yet, the precision ballscrew and the costly and complex gearing in the apron should also be severed from the vari-drive actuator hydraulics.

Particulates aside, separate systems reduce risk that leaks in one system could cause all others to go dry.

And, of course, coolant pumps are simple creatures that don't require mechanical integration with a main drive motor at all, even less in an arrangement that might rely on seals preventing their juice and adjacently pumped lube/hydraulic oil mixing, either direction.

So.. three not one, electrically-driven 'oil' pumps and filters are now on my shopping list. Coolant pumps I have aplenty already.

Looking forward to a very good lathe with not a great deal to have to fix.

Greedy enough to be pleased that no one else had bought it first!

Probably to our advantage to go and have a look at:

Welcome to Procyon Machine - Specializing in CNC Machine Tools...

More often.

Most especially when Don pops up in a PM thread about something exotic he has gotten his hands on. He doesn't keep all of the toys. Sometimes he sells them and goes after other interesting ones to drool over!

Grateful I don't have his job. I'd never sell.

I'd starve to death out of coveting stuff first!

:)

More as it transpires...
 








 
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