Graziano SAG14 Headstock Noise

talvare · Aug 22, 2016

I have a question for other SAG14 owners concerning the sounds from the headstock. I'm not sure if it's my imagination or not, but the headstock gears sure seem noisy to me. When I start the lathe up cold, the gears seem pretty quiet, but after the oil gets up to full temperature, it gets pretty noisy. The only description I can give is that the gears have a loud rattling type noise, especially under light loading. I can put a little load on the gears just by pressing my hand pretty heavily on the chuck while it's turning and the rattling noise decreases somewhat. I run Mobil DTE26 (ISO 68) oil and the inside of the headstock looks immaculate and I can't find anything physically wrong. I have thought about going to a heavier oil, but not sure if that is a good idea. How do your SAG14's sound ? Any ideas about mine would be welcomed.

Thanks in advance

Ted

SAG 180 · Aug 24, 2016

My similar SAG180 is noisy and so is another forum member's SAG180. They sound about the same to me as similar size Colchester Triumphs and smaller Masters and Bantams. These machines are all running straight cut gears in oil and sound a little bit quieter in reverse where the gear wear may be a bit less. Here's a video of mine where the sound is a bit exaggerated as the camera has an annoying auto sound level algorithm that didn't work. Also at the 3:00 to 4:00 minute mark the annoying background sound is a tired pedestal fan chugging away in the summer heat so the 8:10 minute mark is about representative. There are plenty of Grazianos running on YouTube for comparison.

otrlt · Aug 24, 2016

Hello Talvare,
Did this noise gradually increase or was it sudden? While your spindle motor is on put your finger on the lube sight glass on the (head stock), you should feel a strong pulse. You may want to also clean the oil filter behind the sight glass. Is the excess noise still present when you disengage the feed lever (lower headstock)? You should also check that all of your feed/threading levers are firmly engaged. Last but not least, many people overlook to lube the spindle countershaft (open door on backside of spindle).

I see your in Sacramento, I'm very close-by in Diamond Springs.
otrlt

SAG 180 · Aug 24, 2016

You should be running an ISO46 oil in your SAG14, I'd be wary of running even ISO68 unless you're in a hot climate where the oil will be thinner due to warmer temps.

B.Kliebert · Aug 25, 2016

I am running ISO46 in my SAG14, it sounds identical to the machine in SAG 180's video.

talvare · Aug 28, 2016

Good Morning Gentlemen,

I apologize for the late response. I've been away from home for a few days. First, to answer a few of your questions, yes, the oil sight glass has a strong pulse when the machine is running. The filter has been cleaned and the gear cases all have new lubricant. The machine runs very quietly while idling before engaging the spindle drive. It seems to me that this increased noise has come about gradually (I've had the lathe for about 5 years). When I first start the machine cold and engage the spindle it runs fairly quiet, but after about 5 minutes of running it seems to almost suddenly start to get the loud rattling noise in the headstock. As soon as I disengage the spindle drive it runs quietly. I notice that if I engage the spindle drive lever slowly, the rattling noise doesn't start until the clutches are fully engaged. The spindle will run up to almost full speed quietly until the the spindle engagement lever "cams over" into full clutch engagement. I'm wondering if this could be a clutch adjustment issue. There doesn't seem to be any problem with clutch slippage while running the machine. Also, the machine runs much quieter when running in reverse. I have read what little information there is in the lathe manual about clutch adjustment, but I'm still not sure how to determine when the clutches are properly adjusted.

I appreciate all of the feedback and welcome any more ideas you may have, especially if someone can explain how to determine when the clutches are properly adjusted.

Thank you

Ted

otrlt · Aug 28, 2016

Hello Ted,
Its starting to sound like a clutch issue, but is the noise present when the feed lever (lower right headstock) is in neutral? I'd like to eliminate this field, but it sounds like there could be something influencing the clutch. Do you have a manual?, if not I can email you a copy.
Grazianos run hot, stay with Vactra #2. One last question, on your headstock casting very low is Graziano displayed in upper-case or lower-case (graziano)?

I have operated many lathes of all sizes, some were brand new Mori Seiki's and Hardinge's, Grazianos are the best. I have used mine every day for the last 32 years.
otrlt

SAG 180 · Aug 28, 2016

talvare said:
Good Morning Gentlemen,

I apologize for the late response. I've been away from home for a few days. First, to answer a few of your questions, yes, the oil sight glass has a strong pulse when the machine is running. The filter has been cleaned and the gear cases all have new lubricant. The machine runs very quietly while idling before engaging the spindle drive. It seems to me that this increased noise has come about gradually (I've had the lathe for about 5 years). When I first start the machine cold and engage the spindle it runs fairly quiet, but after about 5 minutes of running it seems to almost suddenly start to get the loud rattling noise in the headstock. As soon as I disengage the spindle drive it runs quietly. I notice that if I engage the spindle drive lever slowly, the rattling noise doesn't start until the clutches are fully engaged. The spindle will run up to almost full speed quietly until the the spindle engagement lever "cams over" into full clutch engagement. I'm wondering if this could be a clutch adjustment issue. There doesn't seem to be any problem with clutch slippage while running the machine. Also, the machine runs much quieter when running in reverse. I have read what little information there is in the lathe manual about clutch adjustment, but I'm still not sure how to determine when the clutches are properly adjusted.

I appreciate all of the feedback and welcome any more ideas you may have, especially if someone can explain how to determine when the clutches are properly adjusted.

Thank you

Ted

You've pretty much described headstock gear noise: when the clutch isn't engaged, only the clutch shaft is spinning and no gears are turning so the noise is much lower, all you hear are the drive belts and the oil pump running. As soon as you engage the spindle in forward or reverse using the clutch, you will hear gear noise from multiple sets of gears running. Usually the noise is a bit less when the spindle is in reverse as that side of the gear teeth will be relatively pristine from lack of use. My lathe has an oil pressure gauge and I get about 40 PSI until the oil warms after ten minutes and thins out, then it drops to 30 PSI for the rest of the running period. If your headstock gets noisier after a few minutes running, then it's probably the oil thinning with temperature. Running thicker oil than recommended may reduce the life of your spindle roller bearings among other things. Very similar Colchester lathes with virtually identical clutches driving straight cut gears run ISO27 oil. I have heard from a Graziano serviceman that my particular model of SAG180 with a bronze spindle bush was run on ISO20 oil normally, and I plan to go from ISO46 to ISO32 and see how things run with that first.

Valvoline Ultramax HVI hydraulic oil is an oil that is advertised as having minimal viscosity changes due to temperature, maybe a similar product can reduce some of the noise after warm up.

otrlt · Aug 28, 2016

This is not an oil issue. Vactra #2 has been used in mine for decades from 45 degrees-to 90+, heavy use turning heat treated alloy steel and high temp alloys. Ted has a clutch problem, possibly only a adjustment is required. Their is no such thing as a Graziano serviceman, these lathes run indefinitely.
otrlt

talvare · Aug 29, 2016

Good Morning Again Gentlemen,

Well, I ran the lathe again this morning with the same results as I've stated above. The sound of the headstock while running in reverse is pretty much what I would expect to hear from the straight cut gears. Running in forward, after the lube oil warms up, it gets very noisy. I did run it with the feed lever in neutral and it doesn't make any difference. I'm really beginning to think I need to make a clutch adjustment. I have the manual for the lathe and the adjustment procedure seems pretty simple. I will try to get to that later in the week or early next week (got a lot going on right now) and I'll report back with my results.

otrlt - The Graziano name is in upper case letters on my lathe. Is this an indication of the age of the lathe ? I've always been curious about when my lathe was built, but have never been able to find any really definitive information.

Once again, I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond.

Thank you

Ted

SAG 180 · Aug 29, 2016

talvare said:
Good Morning Again Gentlemen,

Well, I ran the lathe again this morning with the same results as I've stated above. The sound of the headstock while running in reverse is pretty much what I would expect to hear from the straight cut gears. Running in forward, after the lube oil warms up, it gets very noisy. I did run it with the feed lever in neutral and it doesn't make any difference. I'm really beginning to think I need to make a clutch adjustment. I have the manual for the lathe and the adjustment procedure seems pretty simple. I will try to get to that later in the week or early next week (got a lot going on right now) and I'll report back with my results.

otrlt - The Graziano name is in upper case letters on my lathe. Is this an indication of the age of the lathe ? I've always been curious about when my lathe was built, but have never been able to find any really definitive information.

Once again, I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond.

Thank you

Ted

I've never been able to work out the date of my lathe either, the only date is a 1953 certification date on the motor, so it was made after that year. Colchester clutch adjustment involves a stopwatch and measuring the time for it to go from the fastest spindle speed forward to reverse with a chuck mounted on the spindle. I set the clutch on my Graziano the same way with the exception of not running it at the fastest speed when testing. It's set to go from forward to reverse in under a second at 1100 odd RPM and also not spin the chuck slowly in neutral: this happens if the clutch is set too tight. You often see that on some videos of Grazianos. My SAG180 had sloppy linkages that needed tightening up: some clamp bolts tightened and in one case I fitted a fat grub screw as a scotch key for the last lever at the rear of the headstock. The bronze clutch finger that sits in a grooved ring between the forward and reverse clutch pack was also worn from constant rubbing, as if the lever was held forward position for long periods of time. It had to be brazed and machined back to dimension and with the tune up of the levers made a lot of difference to the clutch operation.

One of the other Aussie SAG180 owners on this forum: Lofty rebuilt his clutch packs to replace some tiny springs inside in an attempt to make the lathe quieter with no success. If you have a SAG14 then it was an improved version the the SAG180 so it dates from later on in the company's production run. Unfortunately old Wilmer Graziano didn't put a date on his announcement letter.

talvare · Aug 30, 2016

SAG 180 said:
Colchester clutch adjustment involves a stopwatch and measuring the time for it to go from the fastest spindle speed forward to reverse with a chuck mounted on the spindle. I set the clutch on my Graziano the same way with the exception of not running it at the fastest speed when testing. It's set to go from forward to reverse in under a second at 1100 odd RPM and also not spin the chuck slowly in neutral: this happens if the clutch is set too tight. You often see that on some videos of Grazianos.

Unfortunately old Wilmer Graziano didn't put a date on his announcement letter.

I've never seen any information on setting the clutches in this manner. Actually, I've never even done an instant reverse action with my lathe. Even though the lathe is designed to do it, it just gives me mental images of smoking clutches. Maybe I'll try it just to see how long it takes to reverse. I suppose that should give me some idea if the clutches are adjusted properly. My chuck will spin slowly in neutral when I first start it up cold, but once the oil is warmed up it quits doing that.

I don't think I was ever able to find any dates on any of my paperwork either. Maybe Graziano didn't own any calendars :-).

I also had a question about the oil supply tubing that goes from the filter/sightglass unit to the front spindle bearing. I noticed on my lathe that there is a small hole drilled in the bottom of the tubing that sprays oil on the large gear directly below the oil line and there is another small hole drilled in the oil line that sprays on the back of the spindle bearing. I'm curious if that is how the factory made it, or if that is a modification made by a previous owner.

I'll post again after I get a chance to make some adjustments.

Thanks for the information.

Ted

otrlt · Aug 30, 2016

Hello Ted,
Yes, those holes (inside headstock) are on mine as well. As far as your clutch adjustment goes, follow your Graziano manual, you'll have a good idea when the adjustment is right, your clutch lever will have a firm but not to tight detent engagement. I'm concerned that you may have something bouncing around near the clutch, look closely in that area and feel around for any loose components. I think you mentioned that you have the uppercase GRAZIANO like mine, apparently the lowercase grazianos were newer. One more thing, check your drive belts tension and condition. At start-up I hear mostly belt noise but once warm it goes away.
otrlt

SAG 180 · Aug 30, 2016

talvare said:
I've never seen any information on setting the clutches in this manner. Actually, I've never even done an instant reverse action with my lathe. Even though the lathe is designed to do it, it just gives me mental images of smoking clutches. Maybe I'll try it just to see how long it takes to reverse. I suppose that should give me some idea if the clutches are adjusted properly. My chuck will spin slowly in neutral when I first start it up cold, but once the oil is warmed up it quits doing that.

I don't think I was ever able to find any dates on any of my paperwork either. Maybe Graziano didn't own any calendars :-).

I also had a question about the oil supply tubing that goes from the filter/sightglass unit to the front spindle bearing. I noticed on my lathe that there is a small hole drilled in the bottom of the tubing that sprays oil on the large gear directly below the oil line and there is another small hole drilled in the oil line that sprays on the back of the spindle bearing. I'm curious if that is how the factory made it, or if that is a modification made by a previous owner.

I'll post again after I get a chance to make some adjustments.

Thanks for the information.

Ted

The clutches are pretty rugged, I suppose you could get things hot by going forward to reverse constantly for hours. Yes the hole in the copper or plastic oil tube over the gears is normal if you have a roller bearing spindle. If you have a rarer bronze spindle bearing like mine then there's no hole and the bronze bush gets the full 45 PSI oil pressure. Your clutch spinning the chuck in neutral can be minimised by going to the recommended ISO46 oil: the thicker 68 is causing the problem until it warms up and thins. I doubt any clutch adjustments are going to change the noise level from your headstock, If you drain the headstock oil is there any visible metal particles in the oil that might indicate a failure?.

otrlt · Aug 30, 2016

I agree with you Sag180,
The excess gear is noise is troubling. Ted needs to open the top cover and get a close look while under power, a bit messy so he should have plenty of lube on hand.
By the way, your toolholder that your using is excellent. I've been looking for a complete set for years. I ran a Sag17 and a 20 with those toolholders, they allow upside-down reverse spindle turning (.800 od roughing cuts on 16" steel diameters(Sag17). The Sag20; cuts were over 1" on dia.
otrlt

SAG 180 · Aug 30, 2016

otrlt said:
I agree with you Sag180,
The excess gear is noise is troubling. Ted needs to open the top cover and get a close look while under power, a bit messy so he should have plenty of lube on hand.
By the way, your toolholder that your using is excellent. I've been looking for a complete set for years. I ran a Sag17 and a 20 with those toolholders, they allow upside-down reverse spindle turning (.800 od roughing cuts on 16" steel diameters(Sag17). The Sag20; cuts were over 1" on dia.
otrlt

They still make them as "Rapid Original" or "Algra" type "B", 700 Euros for a full set from Rapid Italy. My headstock suffered a spindle bush failure due to low oil caused by leaking and possibly too thick an oil in the headstock. It's hard to know what the previous owners did to the lathe. The leakage point was a rubber shaft seal which was used to seal the in and out movement of the shaft that selects forward and reverse by operating the clutch finger (lower shaft in the drawing): it allowed the oil level to get too low letting the clutch run dry and was a major bun-fight to disassemble. My oil pump has dents from someone hammering on it to get it loose: they didn't realise there were two grub screws in the one hole securing the pump and loosened off only the top grub screw. The oil pump hangs off the clutch shaft and has to come off if you are going to pull the clutch unit out, so be aware of the "double grub screw trick". The bronze finger on the lowest shaft in the drawing was the one that needed brazing up as it was worn to less than half of it's original thickness on the "forward" side and wasn't operating the clutch pack properly and let the clutch slip.

179440d1472616423-graziano-sag14-headstock-noise-sag-14-clutch2.jpg

Peter S · Aug 31, 2016

I agree about lifting the top cover and taking a good look and listen and feel.

I would try and isolate as many possible sources of the noise by disconnecting them. For example, it might be possible to put the gear selector "between gears" so only the input/clutch shaft can be run.

Perhaps remove the idler gear on the screw cutting/feeds gear train.

Use a pry bar to lever all the shafts to detect any movement. Grab each shaft and part by hand and give it a good shake.

Remove the vee-belts if necessary so the shafts can be easily turned by hand, to detect any odd noises or play in bearings etc.

I would try and locate the noise before dismantling anything (if possible).

I have pretty noisy old Sag 14, I would like to have at look at the clutch one day too (slipping in reverse). Probably just adjustment required, but I have noticed a newish noise when the clutch is engaged, and as the spindle approaches full speed. There is "shringggg" noise that sounds a bit odd.

BTW, otrit mentioned hot running - my sag 14 also runs hot, and has done in the almost-30 years of constant use and abuse (not counting previous owner/s). Headstock has always got quite toasty after a few hours. Roller bearing spindle. Unbreakable lathes in my opinion.

-Just had a thought - would it be acceptable to drain the headstock oil prior to test-running with the top cover off? It might make it a bit less messy! Taking the chuck off would lighten the loading.

BTW Ted, just in case you haven't noticed, the electrical cabinet on later model Sag 14's is hinged, a clever design so you can access the rear cover of the headstock in a couple of minutes. That rear cover also has a clutch adjustment diagram on it.

SAG 180 · Aug 31, 2016

Peter S said:
BTW, otrit mentioned hot running - my sag 14 also runs hot, and has done in the almost-30 years of constant use and abuse (not counting previous owner/s). Headstock has always got quite toasty after a few hours. Roller bearing spindle. Unbreakable lathes in my opinion.

A friend's brand new Colchester Bantam with Gamet spindle roller bearings used to get almost too hot to touch after several hours running in 30 degree summer heat, Machinery 600 said it was normal and not to worry about it. Very disconcerting at the least.

One thing Lofty did encounter with his SAG180 clutch was that the clutch springs had failed in his clutch (post 42)
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...sag-180-a-226641/index3.html?highlight=clutch

talvare · Sep 1, 2016

Well, I had a little time to spend on the lathe this afternoon so decided to try a little clutch adjustment. I only tightened the clutch pack by about 15 deg. as indicated in the manual. It didn't make any difference with the gear noise but definitely increased the effort to engage. I didn't like the extra effort required to engage so just put the adjustment back to where it was. I did one instant reverse with the spindle at 280 RPM and there was no perceptible clutch slippage. I've inspected everything that I'm able to see and touch with the top and back covers removed and haven't found anything wrong. I can't detect any side movement with any of the bearings. The bronze shift forks appear to be in good condition. There is a little end play with some components but I think that is by design. I ran a magnet around in the lube sump and didn't get any metallic particles on the magnet. I've run the lathe several times with the top cover removed and the only thing I can really determine is that those gears sling a hell of lot of oil and most of the noise seems to come from low in the headstock but definitely not from the lower gear case. Also, the noise is present at any spindle speed, so it is coming from a set of gears that are engaged at all times. I've come to believe that the gear rattle noise that I hear is just backlash in the gears. I don't come anywhere near running this machine to it's limits in terms of loading, so I think the gears just make noise from the backlash not being taken up under light loads. I can almost make the noise go away by putting a substantial load on the chuck with my hand (probably pressing 30 to 40 pounds of side load on the chuck). When the spindle is not engaged, the lathe runs so quiet I can hardly hear it above the sound of the idler motor for my phase converter.

You guys mentioned that your machines run pretty hot and mine does as well, after about two hours of continuous running.

I also have the Rapid Original tool post and have managed to pick up a few extra tool holders over the past five years. I'd still like to have a few more.

I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to just live with the noise for now and just keep a good watch on it. If it gets noticeably more noisy, I think I may have to start taking things apart.

Once again, thank you all for your input. I'm always open to any ideas you may have.

Ted

SAG 180 · Sep 2, 2016

Well it looks like you've covered all bases: nothing obviously wrong internally and no obvious slipping of the clutch. Post number 20 has a good discussion on checking the spindle bearing preload here: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ngs-need-adjustment-234363/?highlight=bearing

The interesting thing is that if the preload is too loose, the bearing actually runs hotter than with a tighter preload due to skidding of the rollers. Thicker than recommended oil will increase temperatures due to increased oil shear, there was a gentleman on this particular forum who designed a precision CNC lathe that mentioned his spindle bushes ran SAE 2 viscosity oil. Gamet precision roller bearing have hollow rollers that I've been told allows oil flow to cool the rollers. I imagine using thicker oil lwould have greatly increased shear, increased likelihood of rollers skidding and negligible flow through the rollers to cool them. My headstock only gets a little bit warm after a few hours running but then it's a bush not a roller bearing and would only be heated by oil shear. You may find temperatures go down with ISO46 instead of the ISO68 oil.

talvare said:
Well, I had a little time to spend on the lathe this afternoon so decided to try a little clutch adjustment. I only tightened the clutch pack by about 15 deg. as indicated in the manual. It didn't make any difference with the gear noise but definitely increased the effort to engage. I didn't like the extra effort required to engage so just put the adjustment back to where it was. I did one instant reverse with the spindle at 280 RPM and there was no perceptible clutch slippage. I've inspected everything that I'm able to see and touch with the top and back covers removed and haven't found anything wrong. I can't detect any side movement with any of the bearings. The bronze shift forks appear to be in good condition. There is a little end play with some components but I think that is by design. I ran a magnet around in the lube sump and didn't get any metallic particles on the magnet. I've run the lathe several times with the top cover removed and the only thing I can really determine is that those gears sling a hell of lot of oil and most of the noise seems to come from low in the headstock but definitely not from the lower gear case. Also, the noise is present at any spindle speed, so it is coming from a set of gears that are engaged at all times. I've come to believe that the gear rattle noise that I hear is just backlash in the gears. I don't come anywhere near running this machine to it's limits in terms of loading, so I think the gears just make noise from the backlash not being taken up under light loads. I can almost make the noise go away by putting a substantial load on the chuck with my hand (probably pressing 30 to 40 pounds of side load on the chuck). When the spindle is not engaged, the lathe runs so quiet I can hardly hear it above the sound of the idler motor for my phase converter.

You guys mentioned that your machines run pretty hot and mine does as well, after about two hours of continuous running.

I also have the Rapid Original tool post and have managed to pick up a few extra tool holders over the past five years. I'd still like to have a few more.

I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to just live with the noise for now and just keep a good watch on it. If it gets noticeably more noisy, I think I may have to start taking things apart.

Once again, thank you all for your input. I'm always open to any ideas you may have.

Ted

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