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Thread: Harrison manual/CNC lathe...the second smallest

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    Milacron's Avatar
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    Default Harrison manual/CNC lathe...the second smallest

    Best I can determine Schaublin makes the smallest of this ilk, but this one is pretty sweet, eh ? 1999 Harrison 330S Alpha S+ with Fanuc 21iT control.






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    This is a cute little bugger as well : Inhee Corporation Co.,Ltd

    Best regards

    Søren

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    Quote Originally Posted by søren View Post
    This is a cute little bugger as well : Inhee Corporation Co.,Ltd
    It is, but that's an entirely different category of machine. There are lots of tiny turning centers out there, including the "office lathe" by Haas.

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    If I were to move out of my beloved Graziano Sag 12, it'd be towards one of those cnc / manual lathes.

    How is it to use, and how'd you get such a clean one? Was it sitting in storage for ten years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Machinist View Post
    If I were to move out of my beloved Graziano Sag 12, it'd be towards one of those cnc / manual lathes.

    How is it to use, and how'd you get such a clean one? Was it sitting in storage for ten years?
    Yeah now that I have this one I start to wonder why I should keep my beloved Schaublin 135....heresy !

    Re it's pristine demeanor... it actually was in a high production automotive steering assembly factory...but in the maintenance department...and this was a very clean facility...one of those "eat off the floor if you wanted to" deals. Although admitedly the maintenence department wasn't as clean really.

    Word was that the maintenance guys almost never used it because they had to 'think' a little bit to do so... they would tend to gravitate toward the standard manual Bridgeport Romi lathe right behind it for most of their 'repair and custom parts' projects.

    As far as use, it is sweet to use. In manual mode, nice to just turn a small dial for infinitely variable spindle speeds and it runs sooooo quiet and smooth, nice that the feed rates can be sycronized with the spindle speed automatically (CSS mode). The only slight annoyance is that to change a feed rate while machining in manual mode you have to press rate overide button on the keypad, whereas it would be more intuitive to turn a dial.

    There is a feedrate over ride dial, but it works in CNC mode only...which, on the one hand seems backwards from how it should be...but on the other hand I suppose in CNC mode you might need to alter feedrates quicker since you are not as much "in control" of the situation as you are in manual mode...on your first part anyway.

    As to the CNC mode, you can boot up in Alpha conversational mode or in Fanuc mode. You can even upload programs from another Fanuc machine program. But I have yet to program it so not sure how that will go. I did notice the Alpha programming instructions are only about 30 pages, so it seems pretty easy from what I see so far.

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    AlfaGTA is online now Diamond
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    D:
    Pretty darn cute.
    Glad it is one with the "real" Fanuc control..Harrison made some models that only can use the "Alpha" programming and that totally sucks IMHO.
    If ya want it to be repeat accurate, pitch that Aloris styls post and get yourself a good Multi Fix with a ton of holders....
    My Romi has 64 offsets and i have about half set with tools all ready to go.
    Makes doing almost any job pretty quick.
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    D:
    Pretty darn cute.
    Glad it is one with the "real" Fanuc control..Harrison made some models that only can use the "Alpha" programming and that totally sucks IMHO.
    If ya want it to be repeat accurate, pitch that Aloris styls post and get yourself a good Multi Fix with a ton of holders....
    My Romi has 64 offsets and i have about half set with tools all ready to go.
    Yes, the dual Alpha / Fanuc boot up was new for 1999. Re the Aloris on a lathe of this ilk, we were discussing just that in the CNC forum last week and surprised you didn't surface on that discussion...esp when your past posts on the subject were interjected I figured your ears would be burning

    The slight cringer is that I have a brand new Multifix* tool post of appropriate size but only 3 holders for it, whereas I have the motherload of Aloris holders that came with the machine. Suppose I should sell the Aloris stuff to provide Multifix holder funds, eh ?

    Since I haven't played around with Alpha programming yet, for my curiosity, what "sucks" about it ?

    ===============

    *I have this because I was going to install it on my Schaublin 135...but it's current Tripan system is ok so may let sleeping dogs lie.

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    I will qualify the "Sucks". Had a friend that had the Harrison fitted out with the Alpha only control and it had some real limitations. I looked at the Harrison before buying the Romi and almost bought an Alpha only machine before i got the complete story.
    The problem is that the "Alpha" is a quick programming tool that makes machine code from your making point to point moves entered as you build the part. Romi has a similar "Fanuc Guide" setup. Trouble is you have little exact control over how the cycle is built up....it addresses all cutting situations in the same general manner...great for easy stuff , but if you need something out of that envelope you are stuck...can't really edit the code just have to use what the built in compiler hands out. Code also tends to be bloated and often does steps/moves you don't need.
    Ex: Will do a tool change stop on all finish passes even if you are not changing the tool...stuff like that.
    Romi "Guide" works quite well , but for some operations you just need to go over to the real "G" code and write it yourself.
    Romi setup, and that Harrison i am sure ,allows conversion of the Guide (Alpha) to a G code program which you can then edit to run the way you wish.
    Harrison machines with the Alpha control only could not do that. And if the program would not run it was often difficult to find the problem and correct it.

    Might all be lots better now...the machine i know of was one of the first Harrison programmable lathes to come out.

    Cheers Ross

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    D:
    Have i believe sorted out some good tooling for use on a machine like that.

    Most significant i think was going to Sandvik boring tools. They make a line of full round bars for boring , profiling, ID grooving ..the lot.
    If you go with the Multi Fix block use the boring bar holder that has the round bore. Don't mess with the "V" notch rectangular holders. With the round bar holding blocks the bore will be metric. I use a "B" post on the Romi and the boring bar holders are 40 mm ID. I use the Sandvic sleeves that fit up directly (40 mm OD) and go with metric sized bars.
    Cool part of this setup is that the bars have a small groove down its length and it is clocked at 12:00 to the cutting edge. The sleeves have a small pointed spring loaded plunger that engages the notch...orientates the tool relative to the sleeve. If you loosen the clamp bolts on the block and do not turn the sleeve you can shorten or lengthen the bar without loosing the insert clocking and height.
    Since the boring blocks are round they will also accept straight shank collet holders for ER collets so you can drill off the post....Once set (the boring blocks) you never have to change their height when changing boring bar size...everything stays the same, relative to the spindle center height.

    Cheers Ross

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    Don,

    Doesn't look like that cute little thing has a geared head? So how slow will it go and what kind of torque does it have going slow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by swarf_rat View Post
    Don,

    Doesn't look like that cute little thing has a geared head? So how slow will it go and what kind of torque does it have going slow?
    Mine has a low and high range accesed by changing the belt on to different pulleys. Torque is not bad in low range, considering it's not the sort of machine you are taking .5" DOC with.
    When left in high range it is quite easy to stall at low rpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swarf_rat View Post

    Doesn't look like that cute little thing has a geared head? So how slow will it go and what kind of torque does it have going slow?
    Low range is 17.5 to 1750 rpm, high range is 35 to 3500 rpm. As Tony mentioned this is acomplished by changing the belt (a triple V belt).....quick and easy...just open the left side door, pull up on the blue handle (see last photo, bottom left) which raises the motor, move belt over and lower motor.

    And unlike a typical engine lathe, which is often dirty and greasy in that area due to the gears and physical brake pad, this one has no gears or physical brake, so is very clean in there such that it's not a messy job to deal with the belt.

    The 330S has the same 10 HP spindle motor that the 15 3/4 inch swing 400S has, so torque should be more than adequate for a 13 inch swing lathe.

    Off the subject but another interesting feature is the overhead coolant guard uses safety glass, not plexiglass or lexan...so the view is crystal clear and should stay that way a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post

    Off the subject but another interesting feature is the overhead coolant guard uses safety glass, not plexiglass or lexan...so the view is crystal clear and should stay that way a long time.
    Funny you should mention that. I had had mine about a year, and the agents rang me and said they needed to come and change the glass. Apparentley there had been some shattering problems, so they came and replaced it with a plexiglass one. It was much like a recall on a car.
    All the later ones came with a plexiglass shield.

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    Off the subject but another interesting feature is the overhead coolant guard uses safety glass, not plexiglass or lexan...so the view is crystal clear and should stay that way a long time.
    Watch out for the slugs created by insert drills. They come out between the chuck jaws at speed and break the safety glass quite nicely, even after being deflected by a guard. After a few glass windows and several strategies to avoid such, we replaced the glass with lexan on my Milltronics. Milltronics placed a perforated steel guard over the glass to contain fragments, and it was needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyOW31 View Post
    Funny you should mention that. I had had mine about a year, and the agents rang me and said they needed to come and change the glass. Apparentley there had been some shattering problems, so they came and replaced it with a plexiglass one. It was much like a recall on a car.
    All the later ones came with a plexiglass shield.
    Oh well...I suspected there might be some disadvantage to safety glass since I've never seen it used on other CNC machines. But I thought maybe on a lathe not meant for production it might be ideal. It sure is nice from a clarity standpoint, so I'll leave it be for now.

    Isolated glass breakage is ok as long as objects don't go thru it...I imagine slugs might go thru plexiglass and lexan given the right size and speed. Sometimes a pretty large rock will hit a car window at 75 mph and it would be highly unlikely the rock would actually penetrate the glass...maybe it happens, but I've never heard of one penetrating into the cabin.

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    Coolant cover doors on my Romi are Safety Glass, as supplied original.
    Have broken one and replaced it since i got the machine.......
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Coolant cover doors on my Romi are Safety Glass, as supplied original.
    Have broken one
    Can you better define "broken one" ? In other words, did you have an isolated "bullet hole" looking break, a shattering of the entire glass, an isolated crack...or ??

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    Had a part get loose from the chuck at speed and hit the glass. (before i got the Schunk chuck)
    Made about a 4" bulls eye with radiating cracks on the inner sheet of glass.
    Some similar but much smaller cracks on the outer piece.....no flying pieces or shards...everything contained in the enclosure. Inner "goo" seemed to hold everything together pretty well.
    Bought new piece from Romi and it came with their logo between the glass layers which i did not have on the original.
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Oh well...I suspected there might be some disadvantage to safety glass since I've never seen it used on other CNC machines. But I thought maybe on a lathe not meant for production it might be ideal. It sure is nice from a clarity standpoint, so I'll leave it be for now.

    Isolated glass breakage is ok as long as objects don't go thru it...I imagine slugs might go thru plexiglass and lexan given the right size and speed. Sometimes a pretty large rock will hit a car window at 75 mph and it would be highly unlikely the rock would actually penetrate the glass...maybe it happens, but I've never heard of one penetrating into the cabin.
    By choice I would have left it as well, the view was far superior.

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    If it is safety glass covering with blast film will help prevent shattering. Actually ordinary toughened safety glass isn't a good thing to use in this application. Bullet proof type laminated glass would be better. Preferably with blast film protection inside. Given the surface deterioration induced visibility issues with normal window materials I've often wondered why its not normal practice to have a protective film inside which can periodically be renewed when contaminated. Bit like a visor tear off. Tear off wouldn't work 'cos the coolant would get inside the laminations in short order making a gooey mess but it wouldn't be hard to arrange a QD screen so the edges could be protected. Film goes on easy enough, just wet the glass down and roll it on.

    Windscreen analogy isn't really correct when it come to rock resistance. Windscreens are curved which makes a big difference, flat windows tend to shatter easily due to vibration effects. Glass is funny stuff. Immensely strong if you do it right but surprisingly fragile if you don't.

    Getting back to the Harrison they did make a smaller one billed as the Harrison Trainer on an M250, 5" centre height, chassis. Bit primitive and very top heavy looking with all the electronics and screen in a foot and a half or so deep cabinet running all the way along the top of the machine. Allegedly less than reliable and very primitive on the software side with a control layout putting the programmer a bit too close to the line of fire. No screen front as all the manual stuff was retained, including the top slide. Supposedly for training school use only but I think some did escape into the work world.

    About half a decade back Mike the Pilot and I considered taking a pair off E-bay to return to full manual status as replacements for my Heavy 10 and his Churchill Cub. The logistics of retrieving from Wales didn't look attractive given the price we expected them to make. In the event they went for around £800 which was lots less than we expected.

    Clive

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