Hercules version of the Graziano SAG 14. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It’s either this or a corvette convertible for the midlife crisis.
    F'ks sake. By "midlife", most folk need a slather of Astroglyde and a Patient Lift just to get in and out of one of those low-slung fool-wagens.

    A vintage Bentley Arnage, "Red Label", if you please, when I get too damned old and stiff to get into and out of the XJ8-L.

    Which - Ford influence or no, BTW - is actually the better motorcar. Just not as living-room-ish as a GMC mobile Karaoke lounge cab "pickup truck".

    Hire the Eyetalian mistress. The insurance is cheaper and she won't inspire crotch-rot from too-tight designer jeans to go with the 'vette kultur.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    F'ks sake. By "midlife", most folk need a slather of Astroglyde and a Patient Lift just to get in and out of one of those low-slung fool-wagens.

    A vintage Bentley Arnage, "Red Label", if you please, when I get too damned old and stiff to get into and out of the XJ8-L.

    Which - Ford influence or no, BTW - is actually the better motorcar. Just not as living-room-ish as a GMC mobile Karaoke lounge cab "pickup truck".

    Hire the Eyetalian mistress. The insurance is cheaper and she won't inspire crotch-rot from too-tight designer jeans to go with the 'vette kultur.

    Well, the lathe IS Italian.
    But frankly I’d go for an Alfa not a Vette.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Well, the lathe IS Italian.
    But frankly I’d go for an Alfa not a Vette.
    Lancia. Vintage Flaminia Berlina, a "family driver", IOW, AND NOT the Delta Integrale, either! Heady days, but...

    Suited to US roads? No. Not at all.

    But I'd rather be retired in the North of Italy or the Ticino, anyway!

    I'm old now. Soft foods? Not YET! But soft drinks, soft women, soft seats, and soft music era, for-damned-sure!


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Lancia. Vintage Flaminia Berlina, a "family driver", IOW, AND NOT the Delta Integrale, either! Heady days, but...

    Suited to US roads? No. Not at all.

    But I'd rather be retired in the North of Italy or the Ticino, anyway!

    I'm old now. Soft foods? Not YET! But soft drinks, soft women, soft seats, and soft music era, for-damned-sure!

    The delta integral is a must.
    And a Stratos.
    Ford RS200.
    And of course an Ur Quattro...
    As long as I’m dreaming I’ll take a Rothmans 959.

    Ahhh, back to it.
    The riggers say 700 door to spot on floor.

  5. #25
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    $700 freight is not too bad, hopefully dating the lathe's age gives room for a discount. Sounds like it's got you hooked bad....should be good fun!.

    Edit: I see a taper attachment poking out the back in one of the photos: that's a nice, semi rare accessory.



    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    The delta integral is a must.
    And a Stratos.
    Ford RS200.
    And of course an Ur Quattro...
    As long as Iím dreaming Iíll take a Rothmans 959.

    Ahhh, back to it.
    The riggers say 700 door to spot on floor.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    $700 freight is not too bad, hopefully dating the lathe's age gives room for a discount. Sounds like it's got you hooked bad....should be good fun!.

    Edit: I see a taper attachment poking out the back in one of the photos: that's a nice, semi rare accessory.
    I could certainly be bitten by worse choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    I could certainly be bitten by worse choices.
    ?? It isn't about YOU or YOUR convenience.

    It's the b****y LATHE we are trying to save, Miguel.

    You'd just be one more minder on the duty-roster.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ?? It isn't about YOU or YOUR convenience.

    It's the b****y LATHE we are trying to save, Miguel.

    You'd just be one more minder on the duty-roster.

    Oh I see...
    I was just planning on leaving it in the back yard till it sinks into the mud and calling the scrapper in a decade when I move to Florida and bitch about the government full time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Oh I see...
    I was just planning on leaving it in the back yard till it sinks into the mud and calling the scrapper in a decade when I move to Florida and bitch about the government full time.
    Take it with you. Add a hidey-hole under the chip-pan.

    Likely to be the only thing in your environment that has a fighting chance of resisting Florida's worsening hurricanes.

    The global-warming-that-is-not-happening has changed even our storm patterns in Virginia to the point I may have to "circle the wagons" of my Old Iron and camp-out amongsts their faithful armour in a few more years.

    We packrats may yet come out looking like b****y geniuses for our foresight!


  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180
    I'd be guessing the one you're looking at is 1960's-70's as by 1980 the SAG210 was being made which replaced the SAG 14.
    Neither here nor there, 210 was around from early 70s, a mate's 14 was supposedly made in 80, so wouldn't think it was the replacement, you might be thinking of a 17....which I've never seen advertised or in the flesh on these shores....I'd expect more 60s than 70s on the Hercules too.

    Looks like the cover....and most of the rest of the taper attachment isn't attached to the lathe, which would be odd, so maybe jumping to conclusions that there is one there.

    Not sure what they bring in the US, the mate sold his for a couple of grand, but suppose he'd just sold his building for a good price and wasn't all that concerned about a few extra dollars and, of course the de-industrialization is a bit more advanced here so not a huge market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    Neither here nor there, 210 was around from early 70s, a mate's 14 was supposedly made in 80, so wouldn't think it was the replacement, you might be thinking of a 17....which I've never seen advertised or in the flesh on these shores....I'd expect more 60s than 70s on the Hercules too.

    Looks like the cover....and most of the rest of the taper attachment isn't attached to the lathe, which would be odd, so maybe jumping to conclusions that there is one there.

    Not sure what they bring in the US, the mate sold his for a couple of grand, but suppose he'd just sold his building for a good price and wasn't all that concerned about a few extra dollars and, of course the de-industrialization is a bit more advanced here so not a huge market.


    Thanks for clarifying that Bill, there's bugger all information on this brand online. I'd love to have some time line on when various models were made: personally I would not be surprised to own a 1950's vintage SAG 180. There's probably an Italian language Graziano forum where all this info is known.

    As far as this Hercules SAG 14 goes, it really looks identical to a roller bearing spindle SAG 180 lathe. My particular version has a spindle bush, they do show up in the service manual it's the only one I've seen of it's kind and I don't know if it was just a really old version or if they were a special order option as one story I heard goes.
    You can see part of the main taper attachment body visible below the chuck in photo number 5, to it looks fairly complete to me.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that Bill, there's bugger all information on this brand online. I'd love to have some timeline on when various models were made. You can see part of the main taper attachment body visible below the chuck in photo number 5, to it looks fairly complete to me.
    It’s complete enough to work.

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    I've put taper attachment pics up here sometime in the past from said 14...undoubtedly dead with photofuckit....can't see much in pic 5 from the front though. The bloke seems to have done a comprehensive list of all the other bits in the ad, seems odd he'd overlook mentioning it and the long rod and "stand-off" at the back are usually removed when not in use, so maybe you'll be lucky.

    If you do much turning between centres, the spindle sleeve and taper might come in handy, if he's got that too.

    I wouldn't place too much hope in Italian record keeping, knowing the unrecorded, verging on chaotic crap pulled by Alfa, Ferrari and Fiat part selection in the same period. Having said that, have found DMG still have surprising engineering information on these legacy machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Setting aside all other considerations, it’s a hell of a deal.
    5k for a half way well tooled ‘real lathe’.
    How much will I miss the higher speeds?
    Miguels,
    I don't see any tooling at all, not even a tool post.
    I see some accessories (steadies etc) which are good but there should be more, including change gears. Taper socket for headstock worth looking for, they are special.
    I don't live in USA, but $4800 seems high to me for that old lathe.
    Unless it has truly done little work and been cared for. The lack of way covers* at the front is not a good sign, this is where they are needed most.
    Maybe check the motor plates to see if they have a country of origin, I am still not sure where it was made.

    *edit: covers not guides.
    Last edited by Peter S; 04-14-2018 at 12:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter S View Post
    Miguels,
    I don't see any tooling at all, not even a tool post.
    I see some accessories (steadies etc) which are good but there should be more, including change gears. Taper socket for headstock worth looking for, they are special.
    I don't live in USA, but $4800 seems high to me for that old lathe.
    Unless it has truly done little work and been cared for. The lack of way guides at the front is not a good sign, this is where they are needed most.
    Maybe check the motor plates to see if they have a country of origin, I still not sure where made.
    It’s a reasonable price.
    I’d like it cheaper of course, but in truth it’s not crazy.
    Especially considering the accessories that come with it.
    Add in the cost of freight and it makes even more sense.

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    Year wise unless it's different from normal Grazianos it's early 60's. The SAG180 had cast cross slide and compound. Easy to see because they used the T slot for rear accessories rather than the dovetail the later steel cross slide units used. Also the bed are different width from 180 to 14, I believe lathes.uk says like 3/4". I researched it quite a bit as a friend of mine was thinking of buying one and they had a SAG180 right next to a SAG14 and I wanted to know the difference.

    He purchased the SAG 14 with the later steel cross and compound and his lathe is dated at 1967. So guessing a real Graziano would have to be before that at least for the early model. No clue how being a Hercules affects that.

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    Itís on my floor now, Iíll put up some pictures and answer questions in a few days.
    It looks so cute sitting next to a KT 2K

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Itís on my floor now, Iíll put up some pictures and answer questions in a few days.
    It looks so cute sitting next to a KT 2K
    Really pleased to see you getting into the "real" Old Iron disease mode now, mate!

    That "harem" you are assembling should keep you out of pubs, brothels, and easily as important, from rotting your brain over in the Lego Troll sandbox!

    I may have even less self-control, but if you NEED it, my "crutch" is this entry in my on-box DNS, the "/etc/hosts" file (snip the 'url' delimiters if PM's editor has added it in, of course :

    "127.0.0.1 www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/manufacturing-in-america-and-europe#"

    With that? I can't even BROWSE there if I try to follow a link under "New Posts"!

    Sure has improved my "spare time" rations! And my mood.

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    Miguels244,

    Graziano put the Sag 14 serial on the tailstock end of the bed, see photo. Could you please let me know what your number is? I have recorded a few other numbers to try and build up a picture.

    Graziano beds are hardened - are the Hercules?

    Another thought - is it possible to see where the Hercules electric motors were made, e.g. coolant pump might be easiest? I have found the easiest way to read the Sag 14 main motor plate is to poke a camera in there (impossible to see otherwise).

    BTW, thanks to you and Thermite for tidying up the other Hercules thread


    sag-14-serial-number-location.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter S View Post
    BTW, thanks to you and Thermite for tidying up the other Hercules thread
    So far - Ajax/Mazak excepted, it is only another GRAZIANO badging-exercise thread.

    The 'usual' drivers for differentiation include protection of top-end prices by offering a "different" model whose lower price does not cannibalize the critical cream. Chrysler's Dodge truck 7 1/2 tonners were sold into Asia as "DeSoto" trucks. "North American Market" parts-interchangeable vehicles once had different badges, US and Canada, same critter otherwise. See also Australian auto market, 50 years ago.

    Another driver is getting a few more units out of older dies or molds. VW Beetle production ceased in Germany? It moved to Brazil and carried on for years to serve the less-affluent LATAM market rather well.

    Yet-another cause is that of using-up just-recently obsoleted component parts when upgrades are cut-over to with a stock of "some of" the prior models now-different parts already made and paid for. Too good to simply scrap, too numerous to hold for repair needs? "Let's we make puppies!"

    Examples are all around us on the grander, higher-unit-count scale:

    Ford/Mercury/Lincoln/Continental - even "Edsel" thing (perish the thought!)

    Dodge, Plymouth, DeSoto, Chrysler, Imperial

    Chevrolet, GMC, General (taxicabs), Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, LaSalle, Cadillac


    Long years now, we have had "Just in Time" manufacturing, essentially no "leftovers". In the prior era, upholstery, dashboard denizens - radios to oil-pressure gauges, dome lights to door handles might be handed down - or across - one maker's marque to another at model year cutover.

    MOPAR had codes for it. A tailight bezel might once have been be marked "PLYAL" or "DODAL" meaning it was standard across all models of Plymouth, or all models of Dodge. Same era, other end, the HEADLAMP trim fit both and more.

    Same again with machine tools, those hand me down, and hand-me-across re-purpose frugality examples.

    The goods are durable. Very. Unit sales are accordingly LOW. Money turnover figures were TINY compared to the economic clout of their customers. Think Ford, GMC, Boeing, the US DoD.

    Some spent more, globally, on their telecoms bills than a machine-tool builder grossed, same year.

    Meanwhile...

    Might fix that not-really-Hercules-YET thread by finding "the real" Hercules-Hercules, eh?

    Challenge for yah in that... I'm goin' quiet on it..


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