I've run the machine for a couple of minutes, it keeps dripping oil, mostly from the top variator by the looks of it. So, seal replacement it is.... 20111101-10047 by ~marcel~, on Flickr
Awaiting a quote for the seals from the caz dealer now. Did you guys managed to find off the shelf replacements for the variator seals?
Update: Quote I got was around € 212,- for a full set of 3 upper and 2 lower seals.
The variators on your machine look bigger than the ones on mine (made in 1976).
I still haven't fitted the seals onto my machine as yet, just too busy working elsewhere to get the time.
In the end I paid £90 which is still a lot for three seals. If you can give me a day or two I will post up the manufactures details and part numbers assuming I can still find them.
Having said that if you need three seals for the top and two for the lower they might be different anyway, I only have one for the top and two for the lower, maybe they count the little O ring for the variator spindle?
I think they counted "number of parts" needed, not the number of seals. I'm reasonably sure all HBX360 machines use the same seals, as they didn't ask me any serial number or year of the machine.
I'll try to get the exact part numbers so we can compare.
Hi MRB.
My HBX is from 1980 and yours is quiet different to ours. you have some hydraulic components where in our case the electrical cabinet is. also the cover arrangement of the hydraulic tank is different.
your lower variator cap is of a newer type. The Dutch Caz dealer charges you € 1100 or a new one. I was only missing the smaller plastic cap which I made myself out of PVDF-plastic for free according to the dimensions handed over by Pastie. So far it seems to work as I have no oil rain.
the seals of the upper and lower variator are normal parts available over the counter.
you can contact Eriks servicecenter in Rotterdam or Rijnmond. They can sort out the proper type for you. you also can find it on their webshop.
Generally spoken about availability of spares it would be good to have list of alternatives for some components.
The HBX is made until 2008 as a conventional lathe and with a large installed base, I believe the availability of spares is not the issue. the prices they want for the parts is the issue. in my case I ordered the small pin with miniature bearing in lower command valve.
costs? € 145 !!!
It does make you wonder why they charge such a premium for spare parts if not to price machines like ours out of the market. The prices are in fact so inflated that I refuse to buy parts from my Caz dealer out of principle especially when you consider he charges £50 shipping even for a single O ring.
If I'm not going to pay for their spares what makes them think I will buy a new machine off them to replace my current one? End result they get no money off me for spares and no money for a new machine, crazy...
Still waiting on the seals for the leadscrew tubes. As one would expect from British customer service, I ordered the seals over the phone and give the supplier my card details for payment, he tells me the seals should arrive in a day or two, two weeks later no seals, I email the supplier to inquire as to the whereabouts of my seals, no response!!
Maybe he has just been run over by a bus or the company has gone bust, god bless the UK!!
My HBX is from 1980 and yours is quiet different to ours. you have some hydraulic components where in our case the electrical cabinet is. also the cover arrangement of the hydraulic tank is different.
Yeah, I've noticed some differences with most of the HBX-es. The hydraulics are for the copier unit and my electrical cabinet is above them: 20111102-10048 by ~marcel~, on Flickr
the seals of the upper and lower variator are normal parts available over the counter.
you can contact Eriks servicecenter in Rotterdam or Rijnmond. They can sort out the proper type for you. you also can find it on their webshop.
Thanks!, I'll give them a call.
Originally Posted by ducbertus
Generally spoken about availability of spares it would be good to have list of alternatives for some components.
Very good idea, i'm willing to put some energy into such a document and publish that on some sort of web-place. Here's a first take on the info needed:
- original (9 numbers) Cazeneuve part number if known/applicable
- cost estimate if acquired through caz/dealer
- per alternative:
- supplier(s)
- cost estimate
- applicability (machine years, country specifics etc.)
- replacement/installation instruction
Here are the new variator seals (top varaitor seal on the left, bottom two on the right).
Note the smaller bottom seal has an 'O' ring inserted into the 'U' of the seal. I am told the term for a seal of this type is 'energised' and is used to provide better sealing in low pressure hydraulics.
I have written down the spec for each seal as you can see. I purchased these seals from Wessex Hydraulic Services here in the UK Wessex Hydraulic Services.
They tell me anyone who wants to order seals from this company should just drop them an email and maybe attach the pic from the link below.
Whatever this company will charge you can be sure it will considerably less than the Caz dealer.
It should be noted that these seal are a standard stock item and hopefully using the data in the photo here you could purchase these seals from anywhere such as the company Bertus has suggested for example.
Hope this can be of help to anyone out there needing to replace their variator seals.
When I get the time to fit these seals back onto my machine I will take a few more pics and add them to my Photobucket album should anyone be interested.
As for my leadscrew seals I am told the supplier simply 'forgot' to place my order, although he was very apologetic I now have to wait another week to ten days before they arrive.
looking at your pictures of the electric cabinet and chip tray I get the Idea that your base frame is a welded sheet metal construction. You also lack the support of the bed in the middle.
we, owners of older HBX's have casted base frames with a support in the middle of the bed. this is mentioned before, but I didn't understood the message. now it's clear to me.
Here are the new variator seals (top varaitor seal on the left, bottom two on the right).
Note the smaller bottom seal has an 'O' ring inserted into the 'U' of the seal. I am told the term for a seal of this type is 'energised' and is used to provide better sealing in low pressure hydraulics.
Good info, thanks!
Originally Posted by ducbertus
MRB,
looking at your pictures of the electric cabinet and chip tray I get the Idea that your base frame is a welded sheet metal construction. You also lack the support of the bed in the middle.
we, owners of older HBX's have casted base frames with a support in the middle of the bed. this is mentioned before, but I didn't understood the message. now it's clear to me.
It is indeed a hybrid of some (thick) sheet metal and casted parts. I wonder what else is different in this lathe other than the obvious visual changes.
In the mean time I got the lower variator seals out rather easily. The biggest problem was extracting the small locking pin. Seems I also miss the white plastic insert in the housing, or is that another difference between our machines?
First seal was discolored, but ok-ish. The smaller seal was broken in two parts and very brittle.
Although the oil collector box on your machine looks somewhat bigger than on the older models your seals (just by looking at the pics) seem to be the same as the older ones like on my 1976 model.
It may or may not by legible on your seals but there should be some dimensions stamped on them somewhere. I would suspect they match the spec of the seals on my machine.
Seals do indeed look the same. There's nothing printed on mine (anymore).
Been working on the top variator all day. Housing was pulled of with a couple of blows with the slide hammmer. Removing the nut was not that easy, needed to get a new 36mm socket for the air ratchet to get it off.
Before I could extract the sheave half, I needed to remove the hydraulic brake which the previous owner added (i think).
The rest of the afternoon was spent trying to get the top part off to get to the seal. No amount of slide hammering did anything. I tried heating up the sheave center, no go. Tried tapping a bit on the axle while putting some tension on it, no go. Am I overlooking something here? There is a little locking ring inside the threaded part, but that doesn't have to be removed, does it?
I've now put the big nut back halfway, so I can put some tension on the bolts.
Any other tips?
I think ether way will work in the end. But like you I when I took apart the top variator I was starting to think 'this is never coming off'. I ended up making my own slide hammer and the lump of steel I used as the hammer was perhaps bigger then had I just purchased one from a shop, maybe twice the weight.
Having said all that it still took a few good blows to get the thing off. After maybe a six week break I am putting my seals back on tonight, it's been so long since I took the machine apart I am having to look at my own photos so I know how it goes back together.
Bottom variator seals are now back in but when I came to do the top variator the seal I was supplied is the wrong size http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...t/DSC00604.jpg turns out the supplier misread the data stamped on the seal. Give him his due the writing is very small. The dimensions of the seal should be 54mm OD 46ID and 8mm wide. My supplier misread the ID as 48mm so the seal is way to big
I've been to a local servicecenter this morning, of the company Bertus mentioned, with my old seals and a copy of your picture. The seals were not readily available in their main catalog, but they had more options, including fabricating them.
Be sure to mention that the internal dimension of the top variator seal (smallest of the three) is 46mm and not 48mm as previously stated. This was a mistake made by my local seal supplier due the the writing stamped on the side of the seal being very small and partly worn away hence thinking a 46 was 48.
The correct data on the top variator seal is (AUNA 54-14 CFW C1 54-46-8/6.5 )
Sent an email back to my supplier today about the mistake with the seal so will have to wait and see what happens.
to take an other turn in this thread and go back to the apron/slide and cross slide.
I managed to get the handwheel of the cross slide off. removed the other bolts and everthing else in that area. Still couldn't get off the box. also the key in the cross slide shaft proved to have a very tight fit. but at the end everything came of.
after removing the cross slide I found a whole lot of mayonaise and rust. Also the nut, connected to the cross slide has a lot of corrosion pits. found out that the nut is made of a aluminium quality. as the potential voltage of aluminium is lower as the surrounding materials in an acid envirioment it is no wonder that it is eaten away.
so, a lot of cleaning to do. this week I'll take of the apron and start to look at the seals of the sliding tubes.
Can't say it was easy getting the apron off my machine first time round simply because I had never done it before. Like on your machine the top slide nut was badly corroded. Having said this it still seemed to work OK so I cleaned it up and put it back in. You have to buy the screw and nut as a matched pair from the Caz dealer, I was quoted about £1100 to replace both parts, my reply was thanks but no thanks!
Whilst you have the apron off your decision to replace the tube seals is indeed as wise one. I thought I could get away with it and not bother I later had to change them once the apron was back on which was considerably more difficult to say the least. I just purchased some rotary oil seals off the shelf which seemed to do the trick from here Seals by Moore International Im sure you can get these from anywhere to be honest, the dimensions I got for my tubes where 38x48x4, 34x42x5 and 30x37x4. The OD of the middle size seal was about 0.5mm to large so I just trimmed a little of the rubber away with a Stanley knife and it was a perfect fit, seeing as I was gluing it in place the outside edge of the seal being cut off had no detrimental effect. The seals could be up to about 7mm or 8mm thick if need be and still fit OK. On some of the tubes I stacked two seal on top of each other just for good measure seeing as I had them anyway.
I found on my machine that once the tubes are removed and the oil rinsed out by giving each section a tug against the brass stop causes the stop ring to just come out. After this each section will come apart with the seals still intact. By far the best method I found was to cut the seals out with a Stanley knife and use a new blade in so doing rather than trying to remove the steel rings that hold the seals, it's a far neater job this way.
I used Truloc 44 (Loctite Equivalent: 406) to glue my seals back in place and also to glue the brass stop ends back in. Take care when installing the seals for the largest tube. For this tube you will need to slip the seal onto the tube then fit the stop ring, place that tube inside the tube with the threaded end and finally glue the seal into the steel collar. On the smaller tubes you can glue the stop rings in from the back ends of the tubes.
Unless you haven't already done so maybe replace the small seal that is fitted over the left hand 'woodruff key end' of the leadscrew whilst the tubes are off. I bought a seal off the shelf for this purpose in a pack of 10. I have 9 seals left so if you would like a couple PM our postal address in I will send you a some it an envelope. If you wanted to get one yourself the dimensions are 21mm OD, 15mm ID and 5mm thick although you could probably get away with up to 8mm if needed.
All my pictures with descriptions thus far are here Pictures by pastypies - Photobucket just click on 'All Albums' and you will see the leadscrew seal album and the apron album plus all the others.
I have now fitted all the new seals back into my machine despite having first been given the wrong seals by my previous supplier.
My new supplier is not only much cheaper but also about 600% quicker than the first.
It now so happens I have a spare complete set of seals for the top and bottom varaitors plus a seal for the leadscrew where it fits into the gearbox.
I purchased these just in case I managed to lose or damage the new seals when I reinstalled them. As it turned out the process was very easy to replace them.
If anyone should need a set I would be willing to sell the set off for 80 euros which is a lot less than from the Caz dealer. Send me a PM if you are interested and I can post them off in a jiffy bag.
Waiting for my seals to arrive, I was looking at the white plastic oil ring that Bertus was missing. My machine also does not have it and I don't think it's on the drawings I have. Was it an aftermarket addition?
The HBX360 being my only lathe I can't make the part until the lathe works, so I'll have to go out and find me a lathe somewhere or have someone make it for me.
@ducbertus you have perhaps a picture with dimensions of what you eventually made? I think my dimensions may be a bit different.
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Originally Posted by ducbertus
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