Thread: My Cazeneuve hbx 360

Originally Posted by ducbertus

Hi Ole, Pasty and Tex,

I'm gonna make those MK5 adaptors myself. brazing an ring around the end of the taper is maybe not a good idea as you bring a lot of heat in the MK5 bushing. as the adaptors are conical by itself, you can make conical rings with the ejector pins and press-fit them, maybe with a little Loctite 638/641

The tailstock is finished by now and back on the lathe. for the positioning of the capstan, Caz uses springs and balls. to avoid contact between the scale ring and the springs Caz uses a addittional set of balls. during disassembling and now at the assembling those outer balls went into orbit. I got sick of this and tapped M6 in the holes. grinded down a couple of set point screws and was able to assemble everything in a comfortable manner.

at this moment I'm puttting together the longtudional and transversalfeed on the apron. still have to find a seal on the gear which moves the slide forwards and backwards. After that I can finallise the assembly of the apron and several operating systems.

Bertus.

ps. I haven't found a steady rest yet.

Hi Bertus - Glad to see you are making steady progress on you project. I don't know how hard the parts you are starting with are, but it might be possible to turn a small shoulder with a carbide insert to provide a positive retention point. Otherwise, if too hard, a grinder would be required. You might also try heating the ring for a shrink fit. Be careful not to shrink too much or the bore may be shrunk also in that area.....

I finally got my SAG 12 mostly back together, enough to power up the electric transmission and headstock for initial testing.

Hi Texas,

yes, I'm making some progress these days. 4 weeks holiday does the trick. although I've to divide my time between my wife, the Caz, the tractor restaurations of my sons and fathers farm.
I made the decision to put the Caz into life first and the accessoires as steady rests, faceplates and ejector sleeves later on.
to machine Mk5 sleeves is no problem. I have some CBN-tips for these jobs and a AI U1 toolgrinder is at hand.
you suggested probably the best way to proceed, machining a shoulder to support the ring that holds the ejector pin.
today I've been out for part hunting, mainly seals. to seal the end of the sliding tubes I've ordered some X-rings.
further more the seals in the sliding tubes around the lead screw are ordered by now. they all come with dust lips to avoid ingress of small chips or debry.
There is a specific seal behind the pinion that meshes in the rack on the bed of the Caz. the lip of the seal makes contact to conical part of the shaft. therefore you can't use any ordinairy seal.
the Dutch Caz importer tries to get a price and delivery time from Cazeneuve. (that will be difficult in August)
on the other hand my standard supplier of bearings and seals will rais an offer for special one-off made one.
As soon as I've got this seal, I can put the saddle and apron definitive on the bed.
sofar the costs of the parts obtained in local specialized stores are not disappointing. oil nipples - € 1, X-rings - € 1.50, needle bearings (Nadella) 10 x 16 x 12- €10, needle bearing 52 x 44 x 16 - € 21, O-rings - € 0.25/each, cylindrical grinded pins Ø3 x 10 2pieces for free, and so on.
I'm dubbing about a thirth round of blackning parts as I found some parts which don't meet my standard sofar.
this standard is about a light-year below your SAG-12 project.

I hope to produce first chips early october. there are still al lot of things to do and I know that a lot challenges are waiting on my desk once Í returned from holiday.

Bertus

Hi All,

Yes, I got the price and availability of the special seal behind the gear that's connected to the rack underneath the guideways.........€ 48... for a small ring of rubber. As it is a special there are limited number of alternatives. my bearing and seal supplier is looking for a offer for a one-off made one. my guess this will be a bad surprise.

Bertus

Holiday is history. so, the available time is limited.
today worked on the cross feed box and kick out mechanism.
heated the aluminium casing to make the assembly of several new bearings easier. worked fine.
the wheel in the toggle switch needs a new shaft. I tested the device with a appropriate drill shank.
the mechanism seems to be OK.
furthermore looked at the new seals for the sliding tubes. fitment in it's pocket and the dust lip on the inside tube look fine to me. just have to buy a little Loctite 406 and activator.
task for next week is to organize the seal mentioned in the previous post in order to mount several parts definitive.
I've attached some pics to show the progress.

BR. Bertus

Hi All,

still no alternative for the seal in the back side of the apron. yesterday I had a telefon call with the Dutch Caz specialist about this and probably missing parts in the scrapers of the slide.
he suggested to send all the required parts and return the parts I don't need. This point of view surprised me highly. I accepted his suggestion.
the benefit is I'm able to make realy progress, the downside it'l cost a little more as planned. but what the hack, at the end I want a fine working lathe.
I'll keep you guys posted.

Bertus

Hi Bertus. About the MK5 sleves. I bought some made by Bison in Poland. They have a big nut instead of the ring. If I habe to remove them, I just hold a piece of Aluminum inbetween. The are just a few Euros. I'm in vocation right now, so I can not send photos or part numbers. (answering from my phone)
Regards Anton

Hi Anton,

I hope you have a nice vacation. suppose you've earned it.
About the Mk5 sleeves. Once you're back home, please send me the part numbers of those Bison sleeves. I must admit I haven't thought about Bison. Bison used to be pretty chaep. I bought once a Ø 150 Camlock Steel body chuck for € 200 and was very happy with the quality and price

yesterday, I was surfing through the "Usinages" site in France and came across the restauration of the HBX360 from Msieuryoyo. on page 17 there are some interesting pictures of the gear box and the shear pins inside. you have to registrated to see the pics, but they are highly informative. Google Translate will do the reading trick.
[restauration] HBX 360 de Msieuryoyo : Tours - Page 17 .

Bertus

hi all,

after dubbing for a few days, I've decided to take the gear box off, inspect the internals and replace every thing what's worn or defect.
it is not that hard to do, just time and labour.

Bertus

Hi Bertus

Back again. Thank you for the link - very interesting and very detailed.
About the sleeves - here a link SanTool Werkzeuge GmbH
I ordered those with a big nut at the end.
About the watchglass - is that made of plastik or of glass?

regards
Anton

Hi Bertus

I've also taken away the gearbox, but everything looked fine, so I did not replace any parts. But what I died was, sealing the gearbox and the base of the machine with an acrylpaste (like silicon you use in the bathroom) - so no more chips or coolant can enter there.

Nice to watch your advancement.

Anton

Hi Anton,

the watchglass is real mineral glass and look neat. It withstands fluids like thinner.
the link you send is a good one. for those prices I can't do it myself.

I don't expect major issues at the gearbox neighter. just a case of "bin there, done that"
to avoid chips and debrie in the gearbox I also thought about covering it up with a piece of aluminium sheet. But clear plastic is also a good idea.

Bertus

Burtus and others:

I have not used taper pins in the past, but now I have some in my machines and have gotten somewhat educated on what's available. There are taper pins available that have threads on the large end and are intended for blind holes where the backside is not available for removal. It seems to me one of these would be ideal to replace the one in that large gear you guys had so much trouble removing in the apron of the Caz. Obviously, this won't help getting it out, but it will next time...

I have four of this type in my SAG 12, in metric size, so they are available in both inch and metric (and don't mix them up as they have slightly different tapers - 1 in 50 for metric, 1 in 48 for inch). The four I have easily came out without hammering by tightening the nut with a socket wrench (mine were counterbored below the surface).

Just an idea.... Here's a pic of mine:

Hi Turnado,

not too late in my case. As I'm still waiting for a seal in the backsite of the apron, i've to remove the apron one more time (hopefullly the last time for a couple of years.
So it gives my the opportunity to see that I can lay my hands on a tapered pin with threaded end.
As soon as I found the DIN #, I'll post it here to make easier for others.

thanks again for your attention, Texas!

Bertus

Originally Posted by ducbertus

Hi Turnado,


As soon as I found the DIN #, I'll post it here to make easier for others.

thanks again for your attention, Texas!

Bertus

Check out these numbers and see if they are what you are looking for:

DIN 1, 258, 7977, 7978

I found them here: taper pins metric taper pins

Texas,

you found the same numbers I stumbled across on the site of Jeveka, a Dutch supplier of fasteners.
from my rememberence there's not much room for a nut on the threaded end of the tapered pin. So I dived into the pictures I've made over time.
as you can see, the space is limited. I doubt a nut can be spun on the tapered pin provided with an threaded end.

I'll check one of these days.

Bertus

Originally Posted by ducbertus

Texas,

you found the same numbers I stumbled across on the site of Jeveka, a Dutch supplier of fasteners.
from my rememberence there's not much room for a nut on the threaded end of the tapered pin. So I dived into the pictures I've made over time.
as you can see, the space is limited. I doubt a nut can be spun on the tapered pin provided with an threaded end.

I'll check one of these days.

Bertus

What about an Allen nut (the ones intended to use with Allen or hex drivers, generically called hex socket head cap screws)? IIRC, they are about the same dia as the cap screw head since the hex is on the inside....

Like these, but metric: Allen Nuts



Worst case, you might need to relieve the gear side slightly with something like a woodruff cutter - the surface for the nut should probably be spot faced anyway.... or a special washer, concave on the bottom, to match the hub fabricated.

Hi Turnado,

modifying the gear to adapt the threaded tapered pin with the double hex nut is probably the best thing to do.
on the double hex internal teeth you can apply a lot of force. loading the pin with the hex nut and a slam on the small side of the pin can do the job. I must admit, so far in my case it was pretty simple to remove the pin. just a fine blow with a copper hammer and a large Facom punch.
I can do this because the bearings are plain bearings and not needle bearings.

Bertus

Originally Posted by ducbertus

Hi Turnado,

modifying the gear to adapt the threaded tapered pin with the double hex nut is probably the best thing to do.
on the double hex internal teeth you can apply a lot of force. loading the pin with the hex nut and a slam on the small side of the pin can do the job. I must admit, so far in my case it was pretty simple to remove the pin. just a fine blow with a copper hammer and a large Facom punch.
I can do this because the bearings are plain bearings and not needle bearings.

Bertus

No problem, Bertus - just a suggestion. I though it looked like the Allen nut would work without modification....

Hi Texas,

I'll look up the outside diam of an apropriate tapered pin, which is 8 mm I think.
from there I'll must can find the thread of a threaded tapered pin, which leads me to the hex cap screw.
then I can see whether I've to modify the gear or not.
on the other hand, time for building in solutions for "maybe-problems" keeps me away from an operational lathe.
And I have limited access to a lathe at this moment. Maybe I must be satisfied with 95 %, and start making chips.

But, Texas, I certainly do appriciate your thoughts to solve problems!

Bertus

Originally Posted by ducbertus

Hi Texas,

I'll look up the outside diam of an apropriate tapered pin, which is 8 mm I think.
from there I'll must can find the thread of a threaded tapered pin, which leads me to the hex cap screw.
then I can see whether I've to modify the gear or not.
on the other hand, time for building in solutions for "maybe-problems" keeps me away from an operational lathe.
And I have limited access to a lathe at this moment. Maybe I must be satisfied with 95 %, and start making chips.

But, Texas, I certainly do appriciate your thoughts to solve problems!

Bertus

Near as I can tell, metric tapered pins are sized by the dia of the small end, and they have a 1 in 50 taper on that dia. I think the nut works as well as it does because when pulling on the pin, the elastic properties of the pin tend to cause it to shrink in dia - when trying to drive it out from the opposite side, those same elastic properties tend to cause the pin to grow in dia, making it harder to remove. Probably not a big factor on short fat pins, but more important on long thin pins.....