What's new
What's new

Pre-purchase advice on a SAG 20 lathe?

alha

Aluminum
Joined
May 25, 2006
Location
Minnesota
Guys, I am looking at purchasing my first lathe, I've been looking at a number of them over the years, and now I finally have the shop space to do it in. Being my first, I have no accessories, or pretty much anything lathe related, which I know can be a Big expense to fit out one if it is missing bits and pieces.

The reason I mention this, is that I found a SAG 20 at a local mfg plant that is selling off some of it's less utilized machinery, and one item they had listed was a SAG 20. I have heard of Graziano before, and I understand it to be a well built machine, pretty uncommon, and from what I have read, once warmed up, a bit noisy.

The machine they are selling appears to be in about average condition for it's age, but the big thing that got me interested was the fact that it came with a bunch of additional items, and even a cabinet to put them in. Things like steady rests, tool holder and tooling, collets, drill chucks, even from the looks of it a few spare parts.

So, my main question and reason for posting here, is when I go down to look at it, what should I be looking for, other than the obvious wear and/or damage to the ways (which have those interesting covers on them) and rocks in the blender kind of noises from the gearbox? I listened to a couple youtube videos of some Graziano lathes running, even one SAG 20, so I have a little bit of an idea as to approximately how noisy they are, but what else would some of you experienced Graziano owners suggest I look out for?

The price I feel is fair for everything that they include, and the thought of a one stop shop for a lathe setup is very appealing. They probably aren't the latest, top of the line tooling, but at least it will be a fairly complete set of items, so I can get started learning without having to go out and buy a bunch of expensive bits and pieces. I can always upgrade the items I find that I use regularly, with top of the line products, but for learning purposes, I would think these should be good enough to start with.

I don't know if it comes with a manual or not, is Graziano even still in business to purchase one from? How is parts availability? They sound like they are built very sturdy, so if well taken care of, should give many years of good performance. Ideally, if I ever get into the Youtube thing I'd probably like to have a quieter machine, but there's always room for a 2nd one down the road, maybe a DS&G, a Monarch, something top of the line I'd think would be a bit quieter due to their high precision construction?

Well, feel free to enlighten me with all I should know and what to look out for before I head down there, so I can be as prepared as possible when I look at it, and can avoid any nasty surprises. Thanks!
 
Graziano are no longer in business, so any parts would be whatever's left over at machinery dealers who sold the brand. You should be able to make your own parts like cross slide nuts and even screws if the originals are worn. Other parts that could be made are the clutch plates made from hardened steel: they could be laser cut, heat treated and surface ground if needed. The spindle bearings are made by Gamet, they are still in business so if you had to, you could theoretically get new spindle bearings....for a price. They are getting pretty old now with obviously later vintage Graziano lathes like the SAG210 now approaching 35 years of age, so don't expect a pristine machine unless it sat unused somewhere. My smaller SAG180 is not perfect but considering it's age it's a pretty good lathe all in all.
 
Good Morning alha,
You couldn't have made a better choice, Graziano lathes are excellent machines. The Sag 20 is the largest in the Graziano line-up and chances are good that this lathe has not seen much abuse. Here is what to look for;
1. Make sure that the ways still have their shroud (near head stock)
2. Feel the ways, they should feel like glass
3. Make sure the motor is the original
4. The interior of the electronic enclose should be clean.
5. Avoid a lathe that used a tool post grinder

Take a few photos, and post them here. If this lathe was reasonably maintained you will never need parts, Grazianos run indefinitely. Price? these lathes are superior to any new machine sold today.
otrlt
 
these lathes are superior to any new machine sold today.
otrlt

Not quite so.

Not sure if a 10EE from Monarch Lathe LP that uses recycled castings would be 100% classed as 'new', even if built to new or better specs, (up-motored, for-sure..) but..

Cazeneuve only recently replaced the HBX series with the "Optica", a "CNC assisted", but still largely manual lathe, and those certainly ARE 'new'.
 
Thanks for the responses and encouragement guys. Here are a couple pics of it, they aren't the best, but at least give a general visual idea as to it's condition:

SAG20-3.jpg

SAG20-2.jpg

SAG20-1.jpg

SAG20-4.jpg

SAG20-5.jpg
 
Alah,

I own a SAG 14 that I've had for about six years and I have no regrets about purchasing it. As you've said, the headstock tends to be a bit noisy, but I think that's just what you get with a bunch of straight cut gears whirring around in there. If you do some internet research, the Graziano manuals are usually available in PDF format. If you can't find that, copies are regularly for sale on eBay. When looking at the lathe, I would remove the top cover on the headstock (it comes off easily with about eight cap screws) and do a general inspection of the condition of the various components, especially looking for any damaged gears. Take along a telescoping magnet and stick it down to the bottom of the oil sump in the headstock and see if you come up with anything that appears to be abnormal. Run the machine in every speed, operate the carriage and cross slide in both directions, operate the feed screw in several different feed configurations, do a general visual inspection of the ways, carriage and cross slide for evidence of "crashes", check the condition of the tailstock spindle (including the internal Morse taper), check the condition of the headstock spindle (including the the ground D1 mating surface and the internal taper), check the oil level in the carriage sight glass, the feed box sight glass and the headstock dip stick just as an indication of whether it has been maintained, and check for oil flow in the headstock filter/sight glass when the machine is running. One caution is, if you remove the top cover on the headstock for inspection, don't start the machine or you will get an oil bath. I'm sure there are many other things to check, but those are a few that come to mind.

Good luck

Ted
 
Hello alha,
Lathe looks good. I noticed that it didn't have a Travel Dial and it has a poor tool holder, that is good news. This machine appears to have been used as a support tool or maintenance work, it is very possible that this lathe has never been pushed. Check the backlash on the crossfeed screw should be .02-.04. Also, engage the halfnut, there should be no noticeable left to right movement.

Add a Travel Dial and try to find the original tool block and holders and you'll have a gem.
otrlt
 
Well, I went out on a limb (slightly), as I have purchased it, conditionally. I didn't want it to get away, and the seller allowed me to pay for it, but will not complete the transaction till next week when he is back in town and we can meet there to give it a good inspection. I'm not sure of the value of these machines, but I ended up paying $4000 for it, including all the stuff I have shown in the pics of the last post, and the ones below. I believe that it was a fair deal if it consumates, as like I'd said, I have nothing at all in terms of tooling, etc for lathe work, and it comes with everything shown in the pics, including inside and on top of the cabinet, which is also included, so I believe I will be ready to make some chips.

SAG20-7.jpg

SAG20-6.jpg

SAG20-10.jpg

SAG20-9.jpg

SAG20-8.jpg

Talvare & Otrlt, thank you for your suggestions, I will do as much of what you suggested as possible, and I'll see if I can get one of the people who had operated it at the company to work with me on it, as I am going to copy and paste them all into a checklist and bring it with me when I go down to check it out. If anyone has anything more to add that I should look out for, I'll add that to the list as well before I go. I'm kind of excited, this is a piece of machinery that I have wanted for a long time now, well built, rugged and accurate, and I might just have stumbled upon a winner!

Just thought of this from something someone mentioned in a thread around here about checking out the lathe they were going to purchase. Should I see if I can get someone to turn a 12-24" piece of stock and check it for taper when I am there, would that be considered a good test as well? Any other simple easy ones that I might request which would show things to be out of whack? Thanks guys!
 
Duh, I suppose it would just be easier if I posted a link to it, you can look over all the pics if you'd like:

Used Machinery Auctions

*edit* MAN I wish I knew someone around here with a lot of lathe experience, especially Graziano (yeah, I know, good luck on that one) that I could talk into coming down with me when I check it out, I'd even buy lunch! I'll have the list, which is a great start, but someone who knew exactly what they were doing, and looking for, well, that would be ideal.
 
Great Job alha,
$4000, are you kidding! excellent purchase. If my hunch is right, it's worth 10,000 minimum. Don't worry about the taper test. Bring it home, set it on some steel pads and level it. You may have to "shim-up" the tailstock center (it's probably .003-.005 low). Try to find the toolblock and holders that were on this lathe when it left Italy.
otrlt
 
So, that pic of the tool holder showed that it wasn't the Multi-Fix like we had hoped? Oh, and for educational purposes, why do you think that the tailstock center will be low? Just a common issue with these lathes?
 
Although it's too late now, check out the cross\long feed engage mechanism. These can be fussy if worn. The Grazianos were designed to kick out of feed when they hit a preset stop so there is a spring loaded mechanism to achieve this. I had to do some work on mine to get it to stay in either feed direction. You will be happy with your machine if it has not been damaged.
If you have time, you could repaint it to brighten it up a little.
 
Hello alha,
I have never used that particular tool holder, but the original I have. Unfortunately I don't have one on my Sag14, I use a large KDK that works very well but it doesn't allow for upside down rough turning. Upside down turning provides approx. 30-50 percent more depth of cut and excellent chip control. On a Sag 20, 1 inch cuts on 1018 steel is routine.
On the subject of your tailstock; over time wear on the base of the tailstock is normal. The ways are hard, minimal wear there, but the base takes most of the wear.
otrlt
 
Well, I am holding off on doing the happy dance just yet, but I will absolutely break into it if/when it checks out as A-Ok. I presume it will say Multi-Fix on it if it is the real thing, and Holy $#&@, 1" depth of cut? That's crazy! I'll have to read up on upside down rough turning, but it seems like a positive thing if you're needing to remove lots of metal. I am still learning the steel numbers, is 1018 pretty hard, or fairly soft?
 
I am still learning the steel numbers, is 1018 pretty hard, or fairly soft?

Cold margarine on a lathe that size. More sticky and 'tear-y' than hard.
Stick an "L" in there for 'leaded', then more like cold butter.

Steel dasnt get all that 'interesting' until they start putting a good deal of Chromium - worse - Manganese - INTO it, or hard-faced weld over top of it.

Then you'll earn your crust, and wish you had 10L or 12L, even 8620 or 4XXX


:D
 
Hmm, good to know, I think I will start working with that at first, I like the sound of cutting like butter, better than the sound of Oh My God, The Tool Is Going To Break Any Second Now!?!? lol Do you know of any steel supply or tooling supply companies that might give away charts of the different types of steels, and their properties? I'd love to post them up on the walls near my machines, to know what I am getting myself into when I chuck up a piece. I know eventually I'll learn most of them, but it's pretty confusing at the beginning.

Plus trying to figure out what all those extra pieces are, and how to use them. I _Really_ am going to need to purchase a good quality OEM manual for this, but I just did a search here for the SAG 20, and there weren't that many hits, and most of the ones that popped up were just referring to the 20 in passing, comparing it to the 14 or maybe the 18, which seems to be more common. So, is the 20 somewhat of a unicorn, and what are the odds that I can find either an original copy, or a very high quality copy of the manual? I really prefer paper vs. .pdf, but not sure realistically what my options are. Are there many ppl on this forum that even have one? Thanks!
 
Hello alha,
The manual is pretty basic, most of its text is part#'s. The only thing it goes over in detail is the clutch adjustment.
When it comes in your shop, do the following;
1. Drain the Headstock, gearbox and apron reservoirs. Refill with Mobil Vactra #2. Also refill the little hand pump reservoir on the cross slide with the Vactra #2 as well. Pump that lever several times once a week. Lube all lube fittings with the same oil.
2. Set the lathe on 1" thick CRS plates approx. 4"X4".
3. Level the lathe.
4. Connect your 3 leads + ground (#8 wire, nothing smaller). Make sure those leads are tight. Once a year, check those leads and keep them tight.
5. True-in your tailstock center, shim up if needed.
6. Change your motor pulley belts, they are probably 40+ years old.
7. You are done. Once a year, check your level and tighten your leads.

This lathe appears to have the uppercase GRAZIANO molded on its base, the lowercase graziano's were the newer models but there is no difference. It also looks like you have a taper attachment(great for pipe threading), follow rest and steady rest. You have saved a ton of cash, Buy yourself a brand new 10" Buck Chuck and your good to go.
you did good alha,
otrlt
 








 
Back
Top