Pre-purchase advice on a SAG 20 lathe? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Great info guys, thanks. I have enough space in my shop to keep it set up like it's shown in the pics, with the back guard in place as well to keep the chips somewhat contained, at least on the backside. I'm sure some sneaky suckers will escape back there, but overall, it will hopefully keep the mess mostly to the front, and somewhat to the sides.

    Coolant, I hadn't really thought about that. Being 2017, is there now coolant that is less nasty and hassle prone than I remember it being way back in the day the last time had operated a lathe in school? I know that technology marches forward, and to me, for this product at least, price isn't a huge issue, if there is a solution for the smell, and avoids algae growth, as I've read this is an issue in machining centers that have many, many gallons of coolant, is it also an issue with lathes, or is the coolant different, and not effected? I'm happy to pay pretty much whatever, within reason of course (no $200/gal coolant for me, thanks). Because I can't imagine I will go thru a large amount of it, but the machine also probably won't be used 8 hours a day for days at a time, so long term, infrequent use stability is probably going to be a concern.

    Getting excited to go down and check it out, this is going to be cool, and yes, I do understand that this is a relatively decent sized lathe, if I could find something like that 17x40 I'd mentioned, I think I'd probably be pretty well covered in the lathe dept. Probably. lol

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by alha View Post
    is there now coolant that is less nasty and hassle prone than I remember it being way back in the day the last time had operated a lathe in school? I l
    I can't really answer your question directly, but I suspect that there have been improvements in coolants. When I was still working for a living, we were using the water soluble coolant and I pretty much hated it because of the sticky residue left on the machine if it wasn't wiped down after each use and after a couple of months the coolant sump would start to get pretty rank. On my SAG 14 I've set it up for flood cooling and I use Mobil 766 cutting oil. I've set it up so that the cutting oil is first strained through a perforated metal screen in the chip tray, then drains into a primary sump which has a weir then returns back to the main sump via a hose that has a very fine screen at the end before it dumps into the sump. Then the oil is filtered through an automotive oil filter, then pulled through the coolant pump and then pumped onto the work. It works well, the cutting oil is always clean and never needs to be changed. I just add oil to the sump periodically as the level drops because there is some loss of oil that gets caught up in the swarf. A side benefit is that the lathe is always well oiled and I never worry about any rust forming anywhere.

    Ted

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  4. #43
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    Auto filter, that is a brilliant idea! Do you have any pics of your installation, and do you think it would be terribly difficult to replicate it on my machine? Was there mass disassembly already going on so it was easy to do, or is it mostly external and accessible without having to pull the machine apart too much? Does the pump seem up to the task of pulling it through the filter, with the added resistance that causes (I presume it is on the suction side)? Do you know if oil based coolant has issues with the algae or is that primarily water based? Do you use your machine fairly regularly (daily, weekly?) Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alha View Post
    Auto filter, that is a brilliant idea! Do you have any pics of your installation, and do you think it would be terribly difficult to replicate it on my machine? Was there mass disassembly already going on so it was easy to do, or is it mostly external and accessible without having to pull the machine apart too much? Does the pump seem up to the task of pulling it through the filter, with the added resistance that causes (I presume it is on the suction side)? Do you know if oil based coolant has issues with the algae or is that primarily water based? Do you use your machine fairly regularly (daily, weekly?) Thanks!

    alha,

    I haven't seen a SAG 20 in person, but since the general design of the lathe appears to be much like the SAG 14, I would think the factory coolant system would be very similar. The small coolant sump under the chip tray is part of the original construction. This is where the coolant gets it's first filtering by going through a perforated metal screen (this just prevents most of the chips from going into the small sump) and collecting in a small sump. This sump is built with a weir that allows more particles to drop out into the bottom of the sump before the coolant is then drained into the main sump via a hose. The main sump is the tailstock end lathe pedestal which holds something like 3-5 gallons. I put a very fine screen on the end of the hose that will catch very fine particles as the coolant is dumped into the main sump. The factory coolant pump was missing on my lathe when I bought it so I bought a free standing pump to use externally. I installed the automotive filter between the outlet of the sump and the suction side of the pump. The original pumps that were supplied by Graziano were mounted externally at the outlet of the sump, so if that is how your lathe is equipped, it should be easy to install a filter if you choose to. There is no issue with the cutting oil growing any algae or going bad. By keeping it clean, it virtually lasts for ever, it just needs to be added to once in a while because of the oil that is lost when cleaning out the chip tray. Some photo's attached below. (can't figure out how to rotate those photos)
    Ted
    100_2816.jpg100_2817.jpg100_2746.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_2309_01.jpg  

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    Ted, thank you for the pictures, and my god man, you have a beautiful looking lathe! It looks like you could eat breakfast off of it, the food would be dirtier than the machine! Bravo, did you do the restoration yourself? If so you should be very proud of your work. Thanks for the heads up on the pump info, and the pics, they were very instructive. Hopefully I will be able to get mine looking fairly decent, but there is no hope at all that it will ever look as good as yours does. ;-) It honestly looks like it just came off the showroom floor.

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    ahla,

    Thanks for the compliments. The lathe was in pretty nice condition when I got it. I've just done some cleaning and maintenance on it and made a few additions. So far, it's been a great machine.

    Ted

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    Well, I made contact with Anna Maria at DMG Mori this afternoon, we had a nice little chat. She explained to me that they do in fact support them as best as they can, but that there are no electrical parts available, nor any manuals at this point. She did say that mechanical parts are often still available, but she'd need the serial number and also a picture or two of the desired part, which she would send to the factory in Italy to see if they have it available. So, not a perfect situation, but a lot better than no support at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alha View Post
    Well, I made contact with Anna Maria at DMG Mori this afternoon
    alha,

    That's really good to know. Would you mind sharing the contact information for Anna Maria. It would be nice to have "just in case".

    When do you get to see your new lathe ? Looking forward to seeing more photos.

    Ted

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    I'll ping her this morning and ask her if she would like her contact info posted on an open forum, and let her know that there are a number of people excited to know she exists! lol Worst case, I think she would be fine sharing it via PM, but out of respect for her I just want to touch base with her and let her know. As for my machine, the sellers rep is back in town, got in touch with me yesterday, and set 9 or so tomorrow morning as the time to go check them out. Have the check over list made up, so I will be going thru that, and asking questions and listening to it run, looking for anything out of the ordinary. If everything goes well, hopefully my shop will be ready for it in 2-3 weeks, at least that is the plan now. So much for one person to do, it's pretty overwhelming...

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    Ok, heard back from her, and as she isn't always immediately available, she asked that the email address [email protected] be used, and just address it to her in the subject line, she will get it. As for my new machine, I checked it over, ran it up and down, things looked and sounded well, couldn't pull the chuck off of it unfortunately, but otherwise it looked pretty good, oil in the head, and in the ways pump. The ways weren't pristine, but not rusty either, they looked normal for a machine that hadn't seem much use in the last 10 years.

    Overall, everything seemed to be a-ok for a machine of it's vintage, so I committed to purchasing it. Hoping to have it and the other things I purchased Co2 (dry ice) power blasted before I get it into my shop, as I would really like to not bring all those years of gunk along with the machines, my shop is pretty clean, though not pristine, but good enough that I'd like to avoid adding unnecessary gunk into it. If there's gunk to be added, I'd prefer that it was mine... ;-)

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    Hey guys, I have a quick question, and it might be pretty obvious, but I can't seem to think of a good answer. Another other item I purchased the other day along with my lathe was this dual spindle Clausing drill press. It is in very good condition, the price was right, the speed range is adequate but not stellar, as I'd have preferred it to go lower than 260 RPMs, but 5400 on the high side is nice. My question is, it's top is as smooth as a baby's bottom, other than a random nick or hole here or there. No T slots, just polished bare surfaces, with an oil trough around the perimeter. So, other than maybe a magnetic vice, how does one hold their work to this table? It's obvious it was made this way by Clausing at the factory, so I am stumped. What am I missing, or is the magnetic vice the only answer? Thanks!

    clausing-dual-spindle.jpg clausing-spindle-speeds.jpg clausing-spindle-table.jpg

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    I have a SAG 508 which is like the 20 however I have 8 feet between centers. Ten horsepower demands you think a bit more. Running a Grazi has the same feel as an Italian motorcycle. The guy I bought mine off had a Ducati as his ride. It has a special feel just as German equipment has its own feel.
    The chucks are massive and I started out using a engine hoist to change chucks. It was awkward sliding the chip tray forward to allow the wheels to get close. I finally built a gantry crane with a thousand pound chain fall.
    I am dying to know what the little handle in the middle of the carriage on the back side is. I have the hole and mounting screw holes but no handle. Was it for pump lubing? Right now it has brass lube points.

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    If it is what I am thinking you're describing, yep, hand pump for the way lube. The guy demonstrated it to me, and it worked. Very short throw, though.

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    Good Going Alha,
    You have made another excellent purchase. That drill press looks very nice. Even in today's automation the proper use of a drill press is still a very powerful tool. Don't put it in a corner, place it where it will get some use.
    otrlt

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    Thanks otrit, I really stole it from them, and I feel a little guilty about all the purchases, because the place I got it all from is shutting down most production and now importing most of their machines from Taiwan. It's the reality of the market, they made really strong, well built products, but people are more concerned about price than anything else these days, and they had to offshore all but I believe their largest machines. At the peak, there were 300+ people working there, today I believe it is well under 50. Sad stuff. Kinda feels like going to an estate sale after someones passed. It works out nice for me, but not for all the employees.

    Oh, do you have any idea as to how material is held on that table while being drilled? My only guess is a magnetic vice, but that seems a little unusual. Any thoughts, pass em along! :-)

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    alha,

    I would guess your Clausing drill press had a fixture or jig bolted to the flat base of the machine. Perhaps one fixture under each spindle. This is required for production work. The fixture would be made to locate and hold the workpiece, probably with toggle clamps or some other clamp idea. The fixture might have a drill bush to align the drill. It looks like one spindle was set up with a tapping head. So one spindle to drill the tapping drill hole, the other for tapping. That's my guess anyway.

    I would look at bolting something to your base, for example a plate with tee slots or tapped holes or whatever you require. Tapped holes are a pain because they fill up with swarf, ok if you have an air gun handy. I have a drill press which has a length of large RHS bolted to its table, the top surface of the RHS has slots and holes so you can use drill clamps or a vise.

    Ted,
    I am interested in your coolant filter idea because you say it keeps your coolant from going bad.
    Is there a reason for placing the filter on the suction side rather than the pressure side?
    How often do you change your filter?

    Thanks,
    Peter

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    alha,

    Congratulations on the lathe purchase. Of course you realize that this is just a big fantasy until we see pictures of it in your shop, right ? :-)

    Looks like you scored a really nice drill press as well. I agree with Peter about how parts are set up with that machine. That type of machine is generally set up to run many of the same part at one time, so I would guess that they clamp or bolt a fixture plate to the table for the specific part being made at the time.

    Also, thanks for the e-mail address.

    Ted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter S View Post
    Ted,
    I am interested in your coolant filter idea because you say it keeps your coolant from going bad.
    Is there a reason for placing the filter on the suction side rather than the pressure side?
    How often do you change your filter?Peter
    Peter,
    My reasoning for installing the filter on the suction side of the pump was that if there were metallic particles floating in the oil that's in the sump, it would be better if they were filtered out before going through the pump impeller. My logic could be totally flawed, but it seems to work fine. I think from a pure pumping performance standpoint, it would be better if the filter was on the discharge side of the pump, but even in it's current configuration, it's rare that I adjust the flow above 50% of its capability. Concerning the "coolant" not going bad, you need to understand that I am not using a water soluble coolant, I use Mobil 766 cutting oil which is purely a petroleum product. I have visually checked the condition of the oil by letting some pump into a clear container when I'm running the lathe, and it always looks just like it did when new. Machining for me is purely a hobby, so my lathe only gets used a couple of times a week and not always with coolant, so the filter will probably last for years.

    A point I should make concerning using coolant is that I went to quite a lot of effort to control and contain the coolant. If you don't do this, the first time it gets on the chuck you will have an oil stripe on the wall, ceiling, floor and from your crotch to your forehead ! I built a backsplash with hood, put a splash shield on the headstock behind the chuck and a plexiglass door to protect the operator. I also put an extension on the front of the chip pan to keep oil from dripping off of the carriage onto the floor. I'll attach some pictures so you can see what I'm talking about.



    100_2306_01.jpg100_2748.jpg

    Ted

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  21. #59
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    Where did you get that yellow gearshifter for spindle speed? Mine is gray and cracked and it would be nice to replace it.

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    Lol yeah, it is a fantasy at this point, or more like a nightmare, as my shop isn't quite set up yet, and I know that within the next 2-3 weeks at the most (probably sooner) machinery is going to start showing up. Quite frustrated that I haven't found the perfect technique for cloning myself, because at this point, I could sure use about 5 of me. ;-) Really am looking forward at getting it here, and start making chips, but first things first... Well, back to painting my 4x12' workbench, need to get that done and out of the way so I can start rearranging everything else, that is kind of blocking progress, so it has to go 1st. Whatta mess, painting is way up on the list as one of my least favorite things to do...


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