Both toolroom , more or less same size, though HLVH has few more inches of swing.

IIRC Milacron's old post, the Schaublin 102N VM was 10grand more than the plain turning 102N. 102N is just shy of 20grand. The Hardinge comes in at $57,000


So what would make one choose the American over the Swiss, the Swiss is cheaper after all.

Accessories that might differentiate the lathes .

Schaublin : dividing attachment, milling attachment, grinding carriage for ID & OD, starwheel drilling tailstock, turret tailstock, cut off slides, centering microscope, vise with swivel slide. Lathe can be had in bench mount version.

The Hardinge: taper turning attachment, spherical turning attachment.

What am I missing?


So then why does one pick the Hardinge over the Schaublin , the latter is cheaper and has more accessories.

There are tons of HLVH here but nary a 102N VM. Taking into consideration the HLVH's home turf advantage, there should still be plenty of 102N VMs but there aren't.

Was there some Presidential decree preventing Schaublin from selling the VM stateside so as not to compete with Hardinge, you know like how Regan protected Harley Davidson

Spud-- after you run each ( especially threading), you'll definitely see why the hlvh is by far a superb machine, although the vm runs a close second . The hardinge doesn't have to be constantly lubed either.

Markus

And you have run the only VM in the USA, when and where ?

The 102nVM has a bit more gadget factor but I think the Hardinge is a more serious machine.

The 102 is a change gear only machine. Pretty nice to thread with even so. The cabinet base machine has a really nice clutch/brake so creeping up on a thread is possible (nice when threading a platinum watch case for example ).

The 102 has a slightly smaller collet than 5c when fitted for the w25. Schaublin used to offer 5c machines but I don't think that's an option on the newer machines. w20 and w25 collets are the standard here, like 5c there; would be a bit of a b!tch when an unusual collet is needed i.e. special order.

The grinding carriage would need some kind of adapter to fit to a 102nVM as there's no way to fit a bolt to the bed (the monster leadscrew sits under in the middle). That's the case for any bed mounted accessories except for tailstocks.

No taper turning other than what can be done with the compound.

The Hardinge really is a bigger heavier duty machine in comparison. They aren't miles apart but not quite apples to apples.

If I needed a proper screwcutting lathe to make money with, I think I could ship a nice used metric Hardinge over for about the same as what a dealer here wants for a super grungy 102nVM with little to no tooling- around 15,000.

I've made a lot of chips on a 102nVM but never run a Hardinge. And I almost got a Schaublin tattoo when I was in watchmaking school . I'd still take the Hardinge .

As to new prices and more specifically to your question:

Schaublin isn't Schaublin anymore. It's what's referred to as the 3 Salopards now (bastards in French). Three big dealers bought them out, and from what I've seen of the new machines quality has gone way downhill. Again a reason to go Hardinge.

Don may correct me here, as I don't know the bigger machines, but wouldn't a 135 be more in the same league as an HLVH? Then the pricing is closer (but they don't make the 135 any more, do they?).

You need to define "league" I suppose. I've always thought a better apples to apples would be the Schaublin 125 to the Hardinge HLV-H. I'd rather have the HLV-H. The 102N-VM is tempting however because it is a bit smaller than the HLV-H and might be more "comfortable" for small work. But even there, logically the HLV-H would probably win out.

So really, the only Schaublins that have serious advantages over other toolroom lathes such as Hardinge and Monarch, are the 135, 150 and 160. None of these are still made, the 150 was the last one made...probably ceased about 1992.

I wondered similar things myself...

First off, those prices are *definitely* out of date. I have a 2002 price sheet for the 102N-CF with cast-iron base: 30,700.- CHF, and a 2004 price list for 102N-VM-CF: 37,100.- CHF.

With the US Dollar on it's knees, those prices are almost exactly equivalent to the price in USD.

I've always figured that the Hardinge was a known quantity in the US. A machine all serious machinists were familiar with. Whereas the Schaublin is a much less well known machine in the States. I think if people knew how good they really were, they would sell for more in the U.S.

A similar example is the Habegger clones of the Schaublin. They are equivalent in quality (I owned one, and I have a friend that has one), but usually sell for 1/3 the price of an equivalent Schaublin. I've also heard used Hardinge sells for less in the U.K.

I work from a home shop, so my 1250 lb Schaublin 102N is about all I need or want to deal with having to move. The HLV weighs nearly twice as much, and the Monarch 10EE a third more than the HLV! I do envy the thread cutting capabilities of the HLV.

W25 collets have nearly the same (1" max) capacity as 5C (which are called W31.75 in Switzerland). But they are far more costly and difficult to obtain.

In case any of you are curious, this is my setup:

Schaublin 102N-80 (1982) Cast Iron Base, W25, 380V with transformer
New "N" style Inch and Metric carriages (cross slide, metric one is much tighter)
MT2 (fixed) and W25 Starwheel tailstocks (both metric)
Vertical Column (metric) and Milling Attachment (W20 collets)... the column needs rebuilding.
Grinding Attachment (B8 collets)
Geared Threading Attachment (drives cross slide with "driveshaft")
Tripan toolpost

I use both W20 and W25 collets, and I use B8 arbors and WW arbors in the grinding attachment. So I end up using three different Swiss collet styles.

OKKKKKKKKKKK .... I stand corrected. I failed to notice the "N" after the 102. I was opening my big mouth thinking we were comaparing a regular 102 vm vs the hlvh. I own one of each and really do like the hardinge more than the schaublin.


Markus

Well, okay then!
So what do you see as the drawbacks to a regular 102-VM? ...The whole manual change wheel thing as opposed to a QC gearbox, obviously. Have you had any experience in obtaining replacement parts? Probably non-existent, or am I wrong?

I have a **** screw cutting lathe. Just yesterday the feed lever broke. I am going to have to replace this thing eventually. It may drive me nuts before that. I had considered a used 102-VM for the simple reason that I own a plain 102-80. But I have since backed away from that future possibility. Try and win me back, would you

I am surprised the HLVH doesn't seem popular in Europe (from my limited knowledge of seeing used machines for sale and pics of machinery in shops). One sees Schaublins and Weiler and other Euro lathes but never a HLVH. Is this an accurate impression?

CinemaTechnic
The 102N weights 1250 lbs?
I had always thought my 102N weighed under 1000 lbs.

Could you post pics of the lathe please, especially curious to see the screw cutting attachment.

ALL Schaublin stands are very over-built cast iron affairs. That's where the weight is.

Mine is the cast iron stand version.

It is interesting how the stand is very solid but the lathe bed is narrow, compared to an HLVH. Isn't the rule of thumb for a quality lathe that the bed width be twice (or close enough) the swing?

A 102N VM should cost about $36,000 going by the 2004 price sheet. That makes me wonder as to why American shops weren't buying the 102N VM back when it was even cheaper due to better currency xchange rate. Ofcourse now anyone wanting a HLVH gets a Taiwanese clone but the Schaublin is about 13grand more than a Taiwanese HLVH clone?

To be fair, the top bed is really just a flat support. The carriage, I believe, runs on V-shaped ways that are located on the front and rear of the bed casting. At least, that is on the old 102-VM (see pic). Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the newer one is the same configuration.

Attached Thumbnails

 

I have posed this question quite a few times to fellow swiss loving machinist and the sad truth is they all respond with "buy a hardinge", the collets, accessories and parts are easily available and the hardinge will do everything the schaublin will do. But, with that being said, I still want that 125 on Don"s post above. It is akin to, why buy Ducati instead of Kawasaki, it is the cool factor. It is the care in the little details, how the swiss go above and beond in the fit and finish. I have several schaublin 70 lathes, a late model 13 mill, An aciera F1 Plus and I am just addicted to way the swiss machines are put together. So, the long of the short to me is, if you are buying the machine to earn a living, buy the Hardinge, if you just love using, lookin and polishing your machines nobody beats the swiss.

Let's try this from another angle---one which hopefully won't get the swiss' knickers in a knot

Which would you choose: a 102-VM or a South Bend Heavy 10? Why?

To me that's like asking if you would choose a Ferrari or a Ford Taurus... answer depends on your situation, application and pricing.

According to the manual, the 102N can weigh as much as 600 kg depending on equipment. Here's an estimate for mine:

Schaublin TO-102N Head-Carriage-Tailstock 100 kg
105-80.000 Cast-Iron Base 300 kg
105-30.100 Countershaft 28 kg
105-81.000 Clutch and Brake 12 kg
76852.0538 Motor 26 kg
105-80.850 Electrics 13 kg

Total (estimate) 479 kg
1056 lb

Not counting the weight of the 3 phase internal transformer (about 30 kg 66 lb). I didn't weigh it when I had it out, but believe me it was hard to lift!

One thing I hate about Schaublin's 102 screwcutting lathes (both 102n and the older ones) is the lack of power cross feed.

Habegger made their 102 vm with it, and the apron is no larger than Schaublins.

Naturally I have a Habegger .

I should have been more specific. An old, inch lead screw Schaublin 102vm or a NEW South Bend Heavy 10 (whenever those will be available... hopefully within a year?)

The Ferrari suddenly doesn't look like a Ferrari. No parts, no QC, smaller swing, 50-60 yrs of wear. Less expensive?

With those rather odd restraints, I'd go with the SB. But in reality I'd go with neither...would seek out a good used Hardinge HLV-H for the same price as the new SB.

Well I had 2 of them I sold just one to South Africa
They are not that uncommen at least in the Netherlands
BTW was'nt the HLV-H made and designed in England ????


Peter from Holland