Schaublin 125b

Beautiful. The 125 is the only Schaublin manual lathe model I have never seen in real life. Still, the 125 has always struck me in Hardinge HLV-EM range, and other than a possible foot clutch/instant brake, I see no advantage of the 125 over a Hardinge unless it is equipped with the star wheel tailstock, which this one isn't.

Also the Hardinge, when really "right" (i.e. pristine as this 125) is possibly the most quiet running QC threading capable manual lathe in the world.

Yes, it's beautiful. Curious about the turret type stops on the right side of the apron. How are they used?

This machine really is prestine but as Milacron says ... like but IMHO not as good as the HLV-EM.

Sadly fell out of love with Schaublin in the early 2000's turning to Hardinge and have NEVER looked back!

John

Jersey John said:

This machine really is prestine but as Milacron says ... like but IMHO not as good as the HLV-EM.

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I have a 125C, so I have a pretty good idea of the pluses and minuses (and there are plenty) of the machine, but I'd be glad if you could give us more details.

I do have a 125A , a far more simple lathe compared to the 150. Still I like it for small collet work and the fact it has the star wheel tailstock. That attachment is unbeatable.

I wonder what spindle-nose taper the HVL has. Does not look like a camlock. Is machine frame (were the bed is mounted on) made of steel-plate?

Kees said:

i wonder what spindle-nose taper the HVL has. Does not look like a camlock. Is machine frame (were the bed is mounted on) made of steel-plate?

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The taper is unique to Hardinge.....for typical chuck counterclockwise rotation, you simply line up the chuck key with slot in the spindle taper, slide on the chuck and rotate it clockwise a bit to set the key in the perdendicular slot further up the main slot. Although I've never had one come loose unexpectedly, obviously things like tappping would be better done using the integral 5C collet taper.

The advantage is it makes for the fastest and easiest chuck changes (or removals, for collet work) of any lathe in the world.

The base is all sheet metal but my HLV-EM has less detectable vibration than my Schaublin 102N-VM with it's cast iron base.





I used used to know, but now forget...what is the difference in a Schaublin 125 A, B, and C ?

125 A : No feed box for threading. One can thread, but only by the mean of change gears.
125 B : Metric threading feedbox. If you want to go imperial, do your calculations and change gears...
125 C : Metric / English threading feedbox.

These differences only affect the threading department, since turning feeds are obtained via an infinitely adjustable DC motor on both longitudinal and transversal.

TNB said:

I have a pretty good idea of the pluses and minuses (and there are plenty) of the machine

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I would like to see your list....

For me: + starwheel tailstock (in general good)
+ suits B32 collets directly ( for me good as I also use those on the 150 and a dividinghead)
- it is a toy. Well build, high quality materials, very professional. But still, a toy. Look at the apron...the feed...it is too close to the simplicity of the 102 to be considered as a real proper lathe like the 135/150.

Not sure if the Hardinge would do better here.(never used one)

Kees said:

I would like to see your list....

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Let's see what John has to say first...

TNB said:

These differences only affect the threading department, since turning feeds are obtained via an infinitely adjustable DC motor on both longitudinal and transversal.

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Same with the Hardinge. Hardinge is either HLV-TFB (no thread box), HLV-H (quick change inch threads, metric optional via change gears...by far the most common Hardinge)

And HLV-EM (quick change inch and metric, plus dual inch/metric dials on carriage, cross, compound and tailstock), and Hardinge HLV-DR....which is really just a later model EM that has DRO as standard thus eliminating the need of dual dials on carriage and cross feed) Mine is a DR but I rarely call it that as most people have never heard of a DR and get confused.

The advantage of the DR is no need of compensating gearing in the carriage and cross dials, for dual inch/metric dials, which makes for a smoother feeling hand wheel turn.

To further confuse there are companies like Babin Machine that can retrofit an HLV-H or EM or DR to all electronic threading...plus the various Taiwanese copies that come equipped that way to begin with.

I wonder is any Schaublin lathe model has ever been copied by the Taiwanese ? I don't recall ever seeing an example of such.

Milacron said:

I wonder is any Schaublin lathe model has ever been copied by the Taiwanese ? I don't recall ever seeing an example of such.

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Oh, but we have! Even Hoorer Fright sells some.

Problem is, they are seriously BAD copies, as they haven't yet twigged to the fact that just tossing "round stuff" and scrap iron into a cement mixer, decanting it into a paint vat ten minutes later, spraying it with rancid Soya bean oil, and shipping it just - somehow - doesn't quite get the same results..

Perfidious Swiss must have conspired to cheat, somehow...



More seriously, where are present-day Hardinge lathes made?

Oh. Yes.

Monarchist said:

Oh, but we have! Even Hoorer Fright sells some.

Problem is, they are seriously BAD copies, as they haven't yet twigged to the fact that just tossing "round stuff" and scrap iron into a cement mixer, decanting it into a paint vat ten minutes later, spraying it with rancid Soya bean oil, and shipping it just - somehow - doesn't quite get the same results..

.

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OK, I get the humor but what you describe is not a "copy" at all. I mean a Taiwanese lathe that at at 8 feet away looks identical to what it is trying to be.

Present day CNC Hardinge turning centers and VMC's are probably made in Taiwan. Far as I know they offer no manual machines anymore.

Milacron said:

OK, I get the humor but what you describe is not a "copy" at all. I mean a Taiwanese lathe that at at 8 feet away looks identical to what it is trying to be.

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But Schaublin made that easier when they departed curves for flat, squarish shapes. LeBlond Regal or a Colchester Triumph 2000 ... Mori Seiki? Hwacheon, Webb, Cadillac.. any "Taiwanese Generic" may be the better examples.

Monarch, Rivett, Hendey, ATW, DS&G, earlier Smart & Brown .... Hardinge.. Wade, Elgin, Ames, Stark.. the older Schaublins and the smaller Schaublins... all had some form of curves that were far the more distinctive, one from the next.

Once the HS goes flat and angular, spaces are filled with knobs, buttons, and labels? They start to ALL look much alike from 8 feet away.

As far as functionality and lathes targeting fine mechanisms or high-volume, high-precision, but simpler small parts?

Not that I've ever seen nor heard of. Japan, perhaps. Taiwan nor Korea, I don't think so.

AFAIK, all of those entities simply made such of those goods as they needed on larger lathes - and/or imported ones - rather than build more specialized machines to a limited-size work envelope.

Labour was cheaper than R&D investment money. They were digging out from under depression, then war. Then another war. China had near-zero peace 1911-1954, not a great deal the 40 years before. Korea nor Japan not really better-off.

Wars push tech's limits, but first yah gotta have something to push.

Monarchist said:

But Schaublin made that easier when they departed curves for flat, squarish shapes. LeBlond Regal or a Colchester Triumph 2000 ... Mori Seiki? Hwacheon, Webb, Cadillac.. any "Taiwanese Generic" may be the better examples.

Monarch, Rivett, Hendey, ATW, DS&G, earlier Smart & Brown .... Hardinge.. Wade, Elgin, Ames, Stark.. the older Schaublins and the smaller Schaublins... all had some form of curves that were far the more distinctive, one from the next.

Once the HS goes flat and angular, spaces are filled with knobs, buttons, and labels? They start to ALL look much alike from 8 feet away.

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All I can say is you have a way looser definition of the word "copy" than I do, and I can tell most any lathe from 8 feet away...even whether it's a Feeler or Acra HLV-H copy if the labels and original paint are still in place.

Milacron said:

All I can say is you have a way looser definition of the word "copy" than I do, and I can tell most any lathe from 8 feet away...even whether it's a Feeler or Acra HLV-H copy if the labels and original paint are still in place.

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"If the labels and original paint are still in place" I can tell John Deere green from Allis-Chalmers Persian Orange from further yet.

Different experiences and speciality knowledge, each human carries around with him.

The welder I use off and on swears and be-damned the Sheldon he has been using for over thutty years under his own hands is a South Bend.

Remodeling guy looked at my 10EE and said: "Oh! I see you have a South Bend!"

Beware the fury of a patient man.

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(John Dunne)

'bout three months later, got my revenge.

Gave him a 1968 @las 6" X 18" as had been periodically rat-biting me in the ankles from under the bench the Big Girls chased it to..

Kees said:

I would like to see your list....

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Since John seems to be MIA, here's my griefs list about the 125.

For collet work, the shape of the carriage and headstock prevent the toolpost from coming close to the spindle nose.
You have frequently to set the compound slide in a forward position that is not good for support and rigidity.

The starwheel tailstock reduction mechanism is weak by design.
Theoretically it's a very clever design, but if you consider it in detail, you'll realize that the reducer gears have a module of say 0,5, while the rack cut in the quill would be more something like 2... On the long run, something has to give.
I've had two SW tailstocks, and both ot them had dammaged teeth on the reducer gears.

For threading, the location of the spindle on/off lever is less than optimal....
The lever can be set on a bar, so theoritically, you could mount it where you like.
But for threading, it is best operated with the left hand, leaving the right hand free for the quick withdraw lever and the transverse handwheel.
So you set it at the left end of the bar, close to the feedbox.
But then if the work is more or less close to the chuck, the apron comes close to crushing your hand against the feedbox at the end of each pass...

The stops system can be somewhat dangerous, esp for threading.
When the apron coasts the left stop at the end of a threading operation, the spindle is turned off by the mean of a micro-switch operated by a spring loaded bar.
But the main spindle on/off switch remains ON.
If/when for some reason the stop is released, the spindle immediately re-starts.
It requires particular conditions for the stop to be released as I describe it, but under circumstances, it can happen.
Suppose things go south at the end of a threading pass and either the tool breaks or the part escapes the chuck... The operator's main concern is now the part he just ruined and that's the only thing he thinks about for at least a few seconds.
The spindle is off. Or off it seems.
The operator disengage the leadscrew lever on the apron and cranks the carriage out of the way. Instantly, the spindle restarts !
Can be surprising...
And please, don't ask me how I know !

The general operation of the feed is a joke, especially the longitudinal.
Let's say you just performed a threading operation...
What the operator will have to go through to engage the longitudinal feed is :

1. Setting the thread/feed lever on the feed box on "feed"
2. Setting the longitudinal/transversal lever at the right side of the bed on "longitudinal"
3. Switching the feed motor on in the right direction
4. Engaging the longitudinal feed lever on the apron
5. Determining the correct feed rate depending upon the spindle speed and setting it on the feed potentiometer
6. Once the spindle is switched on, waiting for the feed motor to establish its speed, then adjusting the potentiometer untill the desired finish is obtained...

The infinitely variable feed speed could be considered as an advantage (once again, theoretically), but in fact it is not. In my humble opinion at least.
I mean, on an usual lathe, the feed rate is always in relation with the spindle speed, whatever the latter is.
Not so on a machine like the 125, where the feed drive is absolutely, totally independant from the spindle.
That means that you always have to make a (short) calculation to determine the feed rate you want depending upon the spindle speed you work at, set it on the pot, start the spindle, then fine tune it. Not to mention, the drive is relatively slow to react to the potentiometer input (may be a matter of setting on my particular machine thought.
In that regard, the 150 is always kind of "preset".
Just start the spindle, see what finish you get, and fine tune the feed rate instantly on the fly. No hassle.


The radius rather than diameter reading on the transversal dial is something I will never get used to.
For the small work, I don't always feel like swithing the DRO on.
I can't figure out why Schaublin engineers decided to go to a radius dial, whereas the primary and main use of any lathe is to turn cylindrical parts where the diameter rules !

Nothing to complain about in the quality and craftmanship.
Except... People in Switzerland sometimes seem to have such an obsession for quality that they can forget one thing of two about fit and tolerances.
On my 125, for some reason, the fit between the SW tailstock casting and the quill was sooooooo tight, that I had to use a press (with small effort, but yes, a press) to get the latter out...
Don't know if that was due to a move in the casting over time, but it was close to an interference fit.

The fact is :

1. I've never heard about the same kind of problem for any other lathe (generally, the problem is rather too much play than not enough)
2. Except from member Arthur Marks a few years ago, who had to return a tailstock that he had purchased *brand new* in a similar frozen condition. And guess where he had to return it ? In Switzerland.

Soooo all in all, small griefs and mostly about ergonomics and operation, but nevertheless... For a lathe that typically sells for 3 or 4 times more than machines of the same size, I think it was worth mentionning.

Ergonomics is a department in wich Schaublin blokes still had a lot to learn when they designed the 125 in my opinion...

TNB your post made for interesting reading. I saw the video of the Schaublin and was impressed with many of the features. However, I've never had occasion to operate on of these machines. More specifically, I wondered why they were so expensive with a used unit listing for 22000 Euros. I have a Graziano Sag 14 and am still amazed at how ergonomical it is in so many respects considering it is a 50 year old machine.
Your comments about the spindle starting up seemingly out of nowhere are eye opening. The closest I've had in comparison is a student shutting down the motor on the Sag with the clutch still engaged. Pressing the motor start switch was exciting to say the least!

I found the video the OP posted interesting and it seems not a bad way to demonstrate a used machine on the web.

Particularly intriguing was the part where the operator put some type of test bar into the tailstock and checked it with the indicator. Where does one get such a test bar? I have a Schaublin 102N tailstock that needs alignment and it seems that would be a useful tool to determine how far off it is.

I have a W25 star wheel tailstock for my 102N and it is very useful. Fantastic for drilling. Also unique in that you can put a lathe chuck on the tailstock. Sometimes that comes in handy to line a part up. AFAIK the 102N star wheel has no reduction gears.

At the moment I am operating my 102N and HLV-H side by side. Although I am quite happy with the HLV-H, I still do all my drilling on the 102N. I also do my grinding on the 102N as the cast iron bed can be kept dry and quickly cleaned of any grinding dust that manages to get past the rags.

BTW I've found that I can get an equal level of dimensional accuracy from both machines. Although the DRO on the HLV-H makes it much easier to work to those dimensions.

Also much easier to find the Hardinge accessories in the U.S. but fleaBay sellers frequently like to ask 90% of new price for beat up accessories. So not many bargains to be found.

cinematechnic said:

Particularly intriguing was the part where the operator put some type of test bar into the tailstock and checked it with the indicator. Where does one get such a test bar? I have a Schaublin 102N tailstock that needs alignment and it seems that would be a useful tool to determine how far off it is.

I have a W25 star wheel tailstock for my 102N and it is very useful. Fantastic for drilling. Also unique in that you can put a lathe chuck on the tailstock. Sometimes that comes in handy to line a part up. AFAIK the 102N star wheel has no reduction gears.

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Can't speak for the US but in Europe, Franz Singer would be a good start looking for a MK2 test bar. Have a look here.
If it's a W25 you're after, I don't know...
Why not asking Allen Grinding in Germany to make one for you ? They're currently setting up a super-nice Studer OD grinder !

There are two different tailstocks that can referred to as "starwheel ". One of them definitely features a twin speeds reducer.
Check out this little reminder !