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  1. #1
    Kees is offline Hot Rolled
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    On German Ebay is a 135 for sale now.(Don't how to link it here.)
    Right now price is 3600 euro, which I think it's not too expensive.But I am not in the market for such a machine.
    Would like to know other opinions about this.

  2. #2
    Milacron's Avatar
    Milacron is online now Diamond
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    That's the oldest of the 135 designs, with "single pedestal" base, no rapid carriage and no auto threading shutoff, and looks a bit rough. In fact may be in nice condition, but doesn't look it if so, which effects bid amounts. Doesn't help matters that it's sitting on a decrepit pallet. Plus 2 tage to go...not over till it's over.

  3. #3
    TNB
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    When cheap is not cheap enough...

  4. #4
    Kees is offline Hot Rolled
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    Well Tien, I think you are the champion here buying machines for little money.Perhaps machines in your area are cheaper than , let's say, in West-germany.
    But you have to be very lucky to buy a bigger schaublin with low budget.

  5. #5
    TNB
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    Kees.

    Unfortunately, machines are probably as expensive here as anywhere else...

    I think the money I am willing to put in my machines reflects my appreciation of my machining skills and the use I have for the machines.

    Plus I don't really see why a Schaublin 135 such as the one we're talking about should cost a lot more than say 3000 euros. The subject has already been beaten to death, but after all we're talking about a small conventionnal lathe in average to good condition at best, without specific tooling for all we know...

    I love the 135 and the 150 because I find them beautiful (I'm only a hobbyist, so I can afford to love a machine for its look and in that reagard, i confess that I prefer the old "single pedestal" base over newer versions) but I must admit I've been a little disappointed by the recent thread about these machines ("beautiful german toolroom", under the machinery pictures section).
    I thought the big Schaublins were much more interesting from a mechanical standpoint, than they actually seem to be.

    I think a Cazeneuve 360 has much more outstanding features than the 135 or the 150, but I find them absolutely ugly

    Probably the craftmanship put in a 135 could justify its price when the machine left the factory, but I can't really see what a lathe like the one on eBay will do that one of a less prestigious brand wouldn't do.

    In short, I'd be willing to pay more for the pleasure to own a big Schaublin, but not waaaaaaaay more. And once agan, the condition of this one has nothing extraordinary.

  6. #6
    Milacron's Avatar
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    I think a Cazeneuve 360 has much more outstanding features than the 135 or the 150, but I find them absolutely ugly
    Funny T, I feel the same way...except I have only a vague notion of the Cazeneuve's "outstanding features". I spoke with someone that owns an HBX360 once who told me about the cool features and I recall thinking it did sound nice but now can't remember what those cool features are. Seems like the feed rates can be altered while cutting perhaps ?

    So spill it T, what are they ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Btw, funny you think the 360 is ugly...I just assumed if you were French there might be some genetic or cultural imperative to think it's beautiful

  7. #7
    Kees is offline Hot Rolled
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    Talking about French lathes, Tien what do you think about this one:



    Ernault 350 quit well technical design I think and not ugly to see, however this one needs a good cleaning.

  8. #8
    Milacron's Avatar
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    Re Cazeneuve 360, I do like the concept of the tailstock having both rapid star wheel and end of quill handwheel in the same unit.

    On the Schaublins you can do the same but it takes two different tailstocks, and the starwheel one is too heavy to be lifting by hand really.

    I wonder about the ergonomics of operating the Cazeneuve starwheel on the backside however. Might be fine, but seems like it would be awkward.

  9. #9
    Kees is offline Hot Rolled
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    Don, I never noticed that the Caz 360 has a star wheel and a normal handwheel in one tailstock.
    Do you have a picture of that?

  10. #10
    TNB
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    Kees the HN350 from ERNAULT is a nice classical machine, but nothing extraordinary or even unusual to be noticed here...

    The CAZE plays in a different league.

    The CAZENEUVE 360 features a very specific mechanism to drive the carriage. There's no feed rod on that machine, but only a leadscrew protected by a telescopic tube and spinning in an oilbath. The leadscrew drives a worm wheel located in the carriage. If you lock the worm wheel and prevent it from spinning with the leadscrew turning, then the worm has to follow the thread and the whole carriage moves.

    The locking system of the worm wheel relies on a finger engaging in a slot on a disc spinning in relation with the worm wheel. The slot and the finger both have a specific shape that allows them to act as a clutch. If too much pressure is applied, the finger is released and the feed stops (there's a little lever for adjusting the required force to release the feed). That means that you can use stops for plain turning but also for threading operations.
    But that's not all. There are different discs with different number of slots. By selecting the right disc, the operator will be able to automatically pick up the thread for the next pass during threading operations (i.e. the threading lever will only engage with the carriage and the leadscrew in the right position to pick up the thread) without stopping the machine.
    Threading in blind holes or against shouldered parts at ANY speed becomes possible, and the threading operations are much simpler.
    And if this wasn't enough, the feed box offers an incredibly wide range of pitches without changing a single cog...

    [img]http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic?id=2840qtIh0iyquZpCwI*M7xVQa67zKHjJtOVR&size=l[/img]

    [img]http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic?id=2840qtIh0iyquZpCwI*M7xVQa8GbEY3Xz3XF&size=l[/img]


    But there are also a lot of other unusual features, such as the tailstock. As you said it, the 360 BC model has a tailstock offering the operator the starwheel
    AND a fine feed (just flip one lever of the starwheel to switch from one mode to another), but the tailstock also has powerfeed ! There's a feed bar on the tailstock, that you can attach to the carriage. When the carriage pulls the bar, and you're in for automatic drilling...

    There's also the nice CAZENEUVE dial on the crossslide... The main dial is just like on any other lathe, but there's also another secondary dial that gives the operator the direct reading of the tenths (or thous) without having to mess up with a vernier scale. Of course, that won't replace a DRO, but from a mechanical standpoint, I find it...nice and beautiful.

    [img]http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic?id=2840qtIh0iyquZpCwI*M7xVQa5o25uf0UAyw&size=l[/img]

    [img]http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic?id=2840qtIh0iyquZpCwI*M7xVQa27WCQkJYVH2&size=l[/img]

    These are the features and details that comes to mind at first, but the machine is widely recognized to be very user-friendly and well constructed.

    Although I never used one by myself, I've pretty carefully thought about it and l'd say that the CAZENEUVE 360 BC is probably the machine that offers the most beautiful *mechanical* solutions to the conventionnal lathe limitations.
    I mean the Monarch 10EE offers electrical solutions, and Schaublin did not push the ballscrew concept to its limits.
    When I heard about the ballscrew thing on the big Schaublins, I thought at first that they used it to offer some sort of threading stop system and auto pick up of the thread... It seems to me that it would have been possible and may be even pretty easy. Instead of that, the "Beautiful German toolroom" thread tought us that the whole theading operation of the 135 and the 150 relies on a good spindle brake -just like on ANY no name machine - and that if you switch on the rapids during a threading operation, you loose your position ?!?! What the f **** ?! Was it so hard to design a system that would have taken a better advantage of the ballscrew ?!

    Now, it's true that the CAZE is as UGLY as a fridge laid on its side... The fact that I'm french has nothing to do with it. Much less genetics (saw my name or you need better glasses D ?! )
    And it also has its weakpoints but that's another story....

    and BTW, YES, you can change the feed rate while cutting...

  11. #11
    Milacron's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info T. If I had my new scanner hooked up I could post some pictures from the HBX360 brochure.

    Meanwhile, you might find some humor in the following statement from Cazeneuve-

    There is also another aspect which has been apparent since the original conception of the model HBX 360: that of esthetic design. This industrial esthetic approach constitues two essential points. Firstly, research for a functional and smart design which is easy to operate with instinctive movements. And secondly, the necessity through new ideas and by studyin every detail of visibility and angles to increase the safety factors.

  12. #12
    Kees is offline Hot Rolled
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    Tien, thanks for the post.There is a lot I didn't knew about the Caz.
    But I also realize now there are a lot of different views to judge a machine.For me it's important how a machine is constructed.And often details you can't see, but which are critical for the quality of the work made on the machine.
    I think for you (and others) what counts are the features that a machine offers.

    It's funny, in my mind I always had the idea that every one has the same view to find out what is the "best" machine.Because of this forum I know now that's not how it works.


    BTW: the Ernault on the photo also offers threading without stopping the spindle, and I think it has also the extra dail on the cross-slide, just as your Caz.

    About the 135, bidding went up to 4020 euro.
    It's not cheap anymore.

  13. #13
    TNB
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    You can't say that Kees

    I totally agree with you about the way to appreciate a machine, but the CAZENEUVE is known to have a high quality construction (wich is probably what you're talking about when you refer to "details you can't see").
    So if it offers quality AND extra features, the Schaublin can be nothing else than a little disappointing. Especially for the price.

    Once again, a good quality average condition conventionnal lathe with 700mm BC can be found for 2500 euros here, and probably less if you shop a little... So what will the SCHAUBLIN make that this average machine wouldn't do, or how will it make it better ? What are the "details critical for the work" you're referring to ? Please remember I'm not a machinist by trade and my experience is necessarily limited. So don't take for criticism what is probably simply ignorance. I really want to understand, and I'm all ears.

    Also, don't you share my point of view about the limitations Schaublin did put in its ballscrew ?

    Genrally speaking, I really like brands "with an attitude", I mean when people have the required courage to start from scratch and to think out the box and do think their own way.
    But doing things a different way can not be a goal in intself. If you choose to be different, you have to be better or to offer something more.
    What I regret is that I feel Schaublin choosed to be different using a ballscrew for their feeding/threading mechanism, but without pushing the concept to the max.

    assuming the overall quality is the same and aesthetical aspects set aside :rolleyes: , I think the people at CAZENEUVE went further on their way.

    Now, I'm still on the hunt for a reasonnably priced 135 or 150 [img]tongue.gif[/img] and I'm ready to consider any good reasons to spend a little more money on this whim.
    So Kees, you are user : what make these lathes soooooooo special and what would have been you appraisal for this one ? (I ask you the question too Milacron)

  14. #14
    Kees is offline Hot Rolled
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    Okay, let me give you some technical examples:

    The Ernault in photo I posted uses Gamet bearings for the spindle.Gamet was/is a small French company that produces only very high precision bearings, also used in Mikron mills and Kellenberger grinders.The error in roundness -rotation directly has it effects on the quality of the work you make on the lathe.However were talking here about very tight tolerances(0,001 to 0,003) so most people won't never notice it.
    The Caz has a pair Timken bearings for it's main spindle.(cone-shaped bearings)Good, but not the top.Schaublin has angle-contact bearings which also gives high precision.(you can't see those details)Or look at the tailhead of the Caz. no adjustment possible!Now what if there is a error caused by wear with the centerline of the lathe?

    Main reason for Schaublin to use a ballscrew-spindle was this offers much more precision compared to the traditional leadscrew.It also creates other advantages and possibilitys but that was not the main goal for Schaublin.
    Perhaps that's why it's not that far developt as the Caz.I think the newer-type Caz are over the top with their features, the lathe itself was not reliable enough.That's also reflected in the selling-prices.You probaly know the hydraulics which drives the Cazeneuve are DRAMATIC.
    I know a shop that once owned a HBX or HBY, but there were always problems with the hydraulics of the machine.They never came that far to use al the splendid features.After all they get rid of that modern Cazeneuve and bought back an old and trusty HB500.

    Okay, what makes the Schaublin 150 soooooooooooo special for me? Well it's so easy to make a diameter within a tolerance of ,let's say, 0,01mm wide.And for me, as a prof-user that's what is important, more than all the exotic features a lathe offers.From that point of view the modern Caz is not really playing a different league than the Ernault or the Schaublins.
    That easyness of reaching high precision is something not many other lathes are capable of doing that.But it's the result of how the 150 is constructed.And that you find back in selling-prices.


    Tien, you mentioned the feed can be changed under load by the Cazeneuve.Didn't you mean here the spindle-speed, because that is what is hydraulic and the feeds are still using gears I think.
    And do you know the difference between the HBX and the HBY.

  15. #15
    TNB
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    Kees

    The tailstock of the 360 has provision for lateral adjustement. But not in the usual way, and may not be obvious at first glance I admit.

    The tailstock quill bore is not concentric with the quill body itself (I hope you understand what I mean) and two setscrews allow the operator to slightly modifiy the quill's orientation (and thereby, to adjust the lateral location of the bore).

    CAZENEUVE claims this system to be much more precise than the conventionnal setup (where you tune the offset of whole tailstock body), and the
    variation of the center height to be neglectable.


    Yet another "feature" that I find interesting (even if I didn't use it by myself, but I find the concept interesting)Of course, you won't be able to turn a real taper by offseting the tailstock with that system but there's the tracer attachment for such tasks.

    I really meant the feed (*FEED*) are adjustable under load. There's a special arrangment in the feedbox that allows the change while running.

    The hydraulics are what I was talking about when I wrote that the lathe also has its weakpoints...

    I didn't know angular contact bearings were superior over tapered roller bearings of the same class of precision.
    Are the angular contact bearings of the SCHAUBLIN headstock as rugged and stiff as tapered roller bearings ?

    There were three versions of the HBX 360 (A,B & C) with the C beeing the most desirable. HBY is the name of the bigger 590. I don't know if the switch from "X" to "Y" means something else than "heY, look at our new lathe" !

  16. #16
    Kees is offline Hot Rolled
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    I know how the adjustment works of the tailstock of a Caz and I have to admit it seems to work very well, I wish my 150 has that system also.But what it mentiont here was what if the centerline of the quill dropps under the centerline of the headstock.There's no saddle to replace.You have to make a new quill then with the quill bore a little more concentric than the original.

    About the bearing construction of a spindle:
    ideal is the bearings that locks the spindle axial (in it's lenght) are as close together as possible.That also the case with the Ernault, the front bearing are one.In a VDF there's a pair of bearings with only a "wall" inbetween.
    The Cazeneuve has a pair of tapered bearings in opposite position, one in the front and one in the back.Imagion what happens with temperature-changes or heavy cut-loads on the spindle.The front bearing will loose it's pre-loads and will get some play.
    In a Schaublin they are side bij side, in

  17. #17
    detroitmachinery is offline Senior Member
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    That is the biggest Schaublin I ever saw.

  18. #18
    TNB
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    Wow !

    It didn't take long for the 135 to be back on the market...
    Check out this link : http://www.piazza.ch/de/inserat/3244...in_135_vm.html

  19. #19
    Milacron's Avatar
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    That is the biggest Schaublin I ever saw
    The Schaublin 135 and 150 weigh less than 3,000 lbs. The Schaublin 160 which you haven't "saw" yet, is over 4,000 lbs and is the large manual lathe Schaublin produced.

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