What's new
What's new

VDF lathe information

Acciaio

Plastic
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Location
Lucca, Italy
I am considering the acquisition of a VDF lathe: not a specific model at the moment, but one with a centre height of between 180-220 mm. I already have a Boley 5LZ and wanted a medium sized lathe to replace the CVA I have just sold (because it was an imperial machine and I could not find metric change gears or dials anywhere).
Being based in Italy, I have turned my attention to the vast German second hand market, since transport from there costs hardly any more than from the further parts of Italy.
I already have some basic information (downloaded from a link on this forum) on the VDF 36/44 D and s models, but would like to know something about the Heidenreich & Harbeck ro18 and 21 machines, the 1960s models in particular, before the styling got squared off. Do they have direct belt drive to the spindle on the higher speed ranges, like the 36s and 44s? I have found no information anywhere on these. I have read some posts on the bigger S500 and V3, but I think they would be too voluminous and heavy for my workshop, as well as having excessively high motor ratings for my meagre 6.6 kw power main, unfortunately.
I would much appreciate any guidance on this matter.
Jon A
 
H&H: only the S450 and the S500. Boehringer: indeed the 36S and 44S, also the 48S. Later renamed as S360, S440 and S480 if I am correct.. Same machine however. Why are you so eager on the belt drive?
 
Thanks for this info kees. As to the belt drive obsession: both my old CVA and the 5lz have belt drive, and I could/can get great finish with these quite easily. I was under the understanding that a geared head lathe will not quite match a belt driven one in terms of surface finish, although I admit I have not had the experience to seriously put this to the test.
Since you know VDF lathes, could you tell me the real length of an S500 (1000mm centre length) from tailstock to protruding motor, and the weight? I have seen various measurements given in ads, so I'm not sure if I have the space for one or not.
 
Why VDF in particular ?
I am in Barcelona, Spain.
Spain is full of old heavy lathes, well built, from brands now defunct.
I am not a machinery dealer, fwiw.

Any lathe is easily swapped with a VFD + motor, of any size you want. Cheap.
A 2nd hand 3-phase motor is == 300€.
Don´t worry about the motor size.
Imo, ime,...
Any lathe is basically mass/rigidity + spindle quality/rigidity.
Plus possibly wear on ways and elsewhere.

The spindle is critical, easily fixed, but bearings cost == more than the lathe.
The ways are easily fixed, but laborious and skills and lots of work hours.

Not trying to change Your mind.
Just curious.
A friend bought an old east-european lathe, about 2 m length, 4000-5000 kg or so.
Excellent.
Looks like an old farm tractor.
I would not care about which machine, just what You get in mass and spindle TIR.

And for the work, making any gears needed is easier, in my opinion, than changing the lathe.
Besides, any common nr of teeth is easily available in the UK, or elsewhere, for not much money.

Just bore/broach/insert for whatever You need to be able to use the new gear.
No ?
 
I have 4 lathes (maybe more:scratchchin:) with a direct belt drive while also having gears.

As far as "surface finish" I would say that there are things that play a much greater roll.

1 material
2 tooling( and height close to spindle centerline)
3 speeds and feeds
4 coolant and lubrication
5 spindle bearing style and condition
6 way condition
7 carriage feed
8 etc.

A belt final drive will eliminate gear noise and to a certain extent may help dampen the work and spindle to eliminate chatter( there is not a night and day difference on this). All lathes are different.

But gear noise is something largely eliminated when taking loaded cuts and even unloaded is not really affecting surface finish in as much as it is leaving nearly imperceptible (without gaging) recordings on the shaft.

But this is turning not grinding so .......

I have a late model H&HH 21RO with pretty worn bed and all gear drive. It can produce some very nice surface finishes certainly on par with some of the belt drive cuts I've made in similar conditions.Though I don't use it much because I need to rescrape the bed.

If you go with a 21RO I would stick with the 60's era. Mine is the last generation and there are some things I do not like, such as plastic headstock and feedbox covers and a seemingly soft bed among other things but I only have one same make lathe to compare and that is my S500 that has a very good bed and proper iron covers.

The S450 and S500 would be above your power supply capabilities.

If you must have a belt final drive some DS&G 13x30 and 13x40 lathes had them optioned from the factory with a belt selector. I have one and it works fine. They would fall within your power supply limit as well with 5 to 10 hp motors fitted.

Honestly I think the whole belt thing was a carry over from when good gear grinding was more difficult.
The lathes we are talking about should have decent gears.
And perhaps to satisfy some demanding toolroom work or for specific finishing applications.

I would not pass up a nice all geared lathe because it did not have a belt drive option but I am biased because I already have lathes with belt drive.
 
Hanermo, thanks for your enthusiastic advice. I'm not actually fixed on a VDF (i.e. a Boehringer or a Heidenreich & Harbeck), by any means, but some of their models do possess features I want from my next lathe, there are also a lot of them out there in Germany, many at reasonable prices and I believe some spares are still available. Following my experience with the CVA I would no longer acquire a machine which is a total rarity in the place I live. That narrows the field down to Italian, Swiss and better-known (here) French and German machines, and the odd Colchester.
Before passing it on I did a lot of work on my old CVA (for those who don't know it is a an English clone/version of the classic US Monarch 10ee), probably over 150 hours, got to know it very well and use it for several projects. It is not an easy matter finding the metric change gears: I saw or heard no sign of any in over 4 years searching on all the UK small ads and ebay... nothing, they are very rare. You cannot just buy standard gears that can be modded into use, i.e Colchester or Myford, because CVA had to use 32dp gears, instead of e usual 16dp, to get the metric set to fit inside the space in the back of the headstock (it obviously hadn't been designed with a 127 tooth gear in mind). That means you need to make the whole set (13 in all I believe), and an extra banjo.... could be fun for some, but, added to the bed wear (bed regrind in Italy: €5k + disassembly, transport, reassembly...) and worn cross and top slide screws and nuts, to me it meant only one thing: change it.
However, I very much liked the feel of the CVA: the rigid solidity of 1450 kg, the convenient layout of controls, even the aesthetics, and can only imagine that a good Monarch must be a very nice piece of equipment. At a northern Italian dealer's I played with a Weiler and it seemed like a toy in comparison. I also tried a Cazeneuve 360 HBX but couldn't bring myself to buy it... didn't like the styling and the steel panels, and it was noisy. I would definitely consider a Cazeneuve HB500, although they don't have a clutch, nor did the CVA, and I like a clutch... I would also like belt drive to the spindle in higher speeds. Most Italian lathes such as the Graziano sag 12 and 14 (and the earlier 180), the CMT Ursus, the Anselmi Monofap 180 etc don't have this. I won't mention the larger Schaublins, because they are practically unaffordable and someone always gets there first. In any case another desired feature is a larger swing over the bed, room for a decent sized faceplate, since I do (or would like to do) some turning of architectural artefacts that just wont fit on a 13" machine. Also a reasonable spindle bore: the CVA was just 32mm.
Well, that is the basis for my reasoning, but I am still looking and open to suggestion.
 
Thanks for your comments. Obviously the condition of ways and bearings is an overriding criterion when making final selections: I wouldn't pass up on a really good lathe of any make just because it was a gear-only drive.
I am now forwarned about later H&Hs: in any case I prefer the aesthetics of the 60s models. I know that it does not stand the test or reason and engineering logic, but I prefer iron (or alloy) castings to sheet steel and plastics... and would pay more for them!
 
I used a VDF lathe for years. It had 5 speed ranges; the first four gear drive and the last one belt drive. But even when using the belt drive setting, there were several speeds to choose from, meaning that the spindle is still being driven by gears. I wouldn't worry about having belt drive as far as finish is concerned. FWIW, we had to clean lumps of belt dressing off of the belt drive pulley that had been there for years. Didn't make any difference in surface finish, but removed a thumping noise that we noticed during high speed operation.
 
year of Manufacture of this VDF 36s?

I have found this Boehringer 36S for sale at a dealers' in Germany. They claim the YOM as 1976, but I don't think so.
Can anybody (Kees?) give an approximate date for it.
 

Attachments

  • Boeringher.jpg
    Boeringher.jpg
    19.8 KB · Views: 2,015
This is a very late 50's/ early 60's machine. Age does not have to be a problem as long the guideways are OK and the machine runs quiet. Main advantage of the S models is they have a high rpm range ( this one max 2250 rpm I think) while the other old models can have a pretty slow max rpm of the spindle.
 
This is a very late 50's/ early 60's machine. Age does not have to be a problem as long the guideways are OK and the machine runs quiet. Main advantage of the S models is they have a high rpm range ( this one max 2250 rpm I think) while the other old models can have a pretty slow max rpm of the spindle.

Probably 11.2 to 2240 rpm if its similar to the one I used.
 
I'll scout around and see what's available: don't they have a noisy variator drive, though?

Yes, but noise is relative. It's the hydraulic pump that wines.

If you cut many threads and get one with a tracer and multifunction tailstock. You'll love the noise.

Does an F-15 pilot complain that the Pratt & Whineys are too noisy?
 
Thanks for this feedback: the seller says 11.5 to 2240 rpm. I am still waiting for +ve proof the machine has been rebuilt and is sound in bearings and ways.
I am also looking (at a distance for the moment) at an S450 near Zurich, which is closer to me. It could be housed in my shop, with careful reshuffling, but I couldn't run a 11.5 kW motor. From your experience could this lathe still function well using a 5.5kW unit, the max I could power?
 
The S450 is a great machine. 11.5kW does not excist , I believe the range is 5.5 , 7.5 11 and 15 kW for elektric motors.Orginal 7.5 kW was the lowest you could choose when buying new. (and 15kW the max)I think it should be possible to run 7.5kW with 16A . Do not forget this machine weights at least 2600 kg , solid iron...
 








 
Back
Top