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Bankrupt Customer Worth Filling Out Court Papers?

Davis In SC

Diamond
Joined
Sep 14, 2005
Location
South Carolina USA
I recently did about 3,000 dollars worth of fixtures for a good customer.( Company "A") He had hooked me up with a company in Atlanta(Company "B") I handled the technical end with "B", and "A" added about 10 percent and billed them. We found out last week that "B" has filed chapter 7 bankruptcy. My research found over 200 creditors they stiffed, many of them major corporations. I would imagine the
CEO and a select few drained every cent out before filing...

Probably a waste of time and energy to fill out all the court papers is my opinion.. Similar case years ago, except it was chapter 11. I filled out papers for at least a year, and got nothing..
 
Yes, technically... but it was sort of a "pass thru" job, we are probably going to split the loss, or work out something... He and I agree that it is probably a waste of time to file all the papers.. Just wondering if anyone had ever actually collected anything from a bankruptcy..
 
Nope. Nada.
Just ramping up my business, and got stuck with a pretty big loss. It was instrumental in taking me down a year later. This was during the first gas crunch in the '70s.

Lee (the saw guy)
 
I did. $5k unsecured, (although their customers paid for the work), and the other creditors were major players, plus some real estate. Biz re-opened the next week... same location, name, and employees. I got the first of five annual checks a year later for .14. As in fourteen cents.

Chip
 
A partner and I got taken for 345,000.00 yes three hundred forty five thousand, we got 50,000 down to start the job, It was all we ever got. They went bankrupt, we got nothing. Asshole owns an Indy Car team now so it all turned out fine for him.
 
A long time ago, I had the same problem. I knew that my customer was going down the tube, and when he told me to wait until Friday to run the check through, I took it to his bank immediately. They told me that the funds hadn't come in yet, and I could leave the check for payment if I wanted. I agreed, then I saw the teller put my check in with a thick handful of other checks. The money never came in, and there were many more people holding worthless checks than there was any hope of paying.

It became a tax deduction - I probably got more that way than I ever would have collected.
 
moonlight, care to share the name on the side of the car? Some of us on here go to indy races and maybe we could ask "where's the moon light machine sticker"?
 
Not worth your time. The IRS gets first crack at any assets, then employees wages, then secured creditors. You being unsecured fall in below this. Rarely will there be anything left at this point to pay you. Been there too many times. It still sucks but gets less traumatic each time.

Sorry.
 
Yes, technically... but it was sort of a "pass thru" job, we are probably going to split the loss, or work out something... He and I agree that it is probably a waste of time to file all the papers.. Just wondering if anyone had ever actually collected anything from a bankruptcy..

Doesn't sound like such a good deal. The way you say it. You do the work, invest the time and effort. You have most to lose. "A" only adds 10% and has nothing to lose, only to gain the 10%. I could be wrong if company A has also put in some investment.
 
moonlight, care to share the name on the side of the car? Some of us on here go to indy races and maybe we could ask "where's the moon light machine sticker"?

It would be a Dan D Jones and Assoc. sticker. Kalkoven is the name. The K in KV racing. He was an owner of the old Champ Car series. When they got the Panoz car it could not be refueled. We fixed it and made parts for 50 cars. Tooling for the rubber parts, fixtures, prototypes, testing, production parts in 40 days, for free!
 
Doesn't sound like such a good deal. The way you say it. You do the work, invest the time and effort. You have most to lose. "A" only adds 10% and has nothing to lose, only to gain the 10%. I could be wrong if company A has also put in some investment.

Looking at the big picture... This is my best/biggest customer ("A") since the mid-90's....
 
I did. $5k unsecured, (although their customers paid for the work), and the other creditors were major players, plus some real estate. Biz re-opened the next week... same location, name, and employees. I got the first of five annual checks a year later for .14. As in fourteen cents.

Chip

I got 89 pennies and one share of worthless LTV stock on a $28,000.00 billing.
 
I wouldn't lose all hope right outta the gate.
Since they go back 90 days, I can't see any last minute skimmings being OK to keep from those within. ???

If you are low on the totem pole, sometimes bigger fish will try to buy your credit (?) for $.xx/$1.
I don't quite understand how this works, but it seems that the higher your credit ratio, the more likely you are to get paid first.

Quite honestly - if that's the case - that seems like complete BS to me. I would think that everyone would git X% on outstanding credits, but that doesn't seem to be the case - or else they wouldn't be buying credits for real $. I have heard of offers in the .6 to maybe up to .8 to 1 ratio. So not always pennies.

Maybe it depends on the state, the court, the type of business, or ?? I don't know.
I know this was done this way on Dana Corp when they filed a few yrs back. So maybe a publically traded corp is diff than a wholey owned business? (owned by the bank that is!)

I have been on the "owed" end of this before, and we never filled out anything. I doo believe they sent us papers occassionally anyway. (Like the GM truck class action suite that I told to pound sand!) It was a (semi) local shop that had been 50% of our business for a few yrs (automotive). The dad died (before we started with them) and the son got his cart ahead of his horse and got over his head. The mother (widow now) was the one in the suite. I was NOT taking her to the cleaners! (Never met her that I know of) I knew it was comming for at least 2 yrs and it was a calc risk, and I got lucky as I was on the low end of outstanding credit with them. It very easilly could have been 5x as much, so ....

I was only 35. I had time to make more. She didn't.


---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Like Ox said, neighbors shop was owed, didn't file (IIRC) started getting official paperwork
from the court. He never had been down this road before, we all watched it play out.
(He had borrowed my gooseneck trailer to deliver the large weldment to them.)

Then started getting offers from the N.Y. city people.

He gaged his "standings" as each offer came in, he started out around .10 on the dollar,
and finally topped out IIRC .65.

Company re-organized, broke union, hired new at $10 hour.

Maintannce forman rings him up for another job, for newly re-organized company.

He ended up one of the few vendors that would answer the phone from them,
they "made it right" by working the owed bill ($6,000) into the new work.

So the lowly managers knew what it took to keep the plant running,
and worked around the bean counters.
 
Not worth your time. The IRS gets first crack at any assets, then employees wages, then secured creditors. You being unsecured fall in below this. Rarely will there be anything left at this point to pay you. Been there too many times. It still sucks but gets less traumatic each time.

Sorry.

You left out the accountants, lawyers and the state gov. They also get theirs before the unsecured creditors. And it seems to me there is never anything left.


I've been to 3 different creditors meetings here in NJ and never had collected anything. But if you don't go and fill out the paperwork, you have no chance at all.


Frank
 
I wouldn't lose all hope right outta the gate.
Since they go back 90 days, I can't see any last minute skimmings being OK to keep from those within. ???

If you are low on the totem pole, sometimes bigger fish will try to buy your credit (?) for $.xx/$1.
I don't quite understand how this works, but it seems that the higher your credit ratio, the more likely you are to get paid first...

In my admittedly limited experience, whatever funds are raised through liqidation (and Davis said this is Chapter 7, which is liquidation) are paid out in a legally defined order of preference, which, IIRC is:

1. Employee wages, including the employee's tax withholding.
2. Taxes, including that withholding. If the company withheld the money from the employee pay, the IRS will honor that as the employee having paid; THEY will go after the bankrupt employer. This is considered criminal (it's fraud, the employer told the employees the withholding was paid when in fact it wasn't) and bankruptcy won't shield the owners from the IRS.
3. Other taxes, property tax, sales tax collected but not paid, etc.
4. Secured creditors. That's anyone who has filed a "security interest", loan document, lien, etc.
5. Everybody else.

I purchased the assets of a bankrupt company a number of years ago, also worked with the creditor's committee trying to find missing assets (which I wanted to buy). Anyway, the company had stiffed two molders; molder No.1 was owed $80k, and foolishly let them pull the molds and send them to molder No.2. Molder No.2 was stiffed for $30k, immediately filed a lien.

After the auction, molder No.2 was paid in full; molder No.1 got nothing.

Dennis
 
I recently did about 3,000 dollars worth of fixtures for a good customer.( Company "A") He had hooked me up with a company in Atlanta(Company "B") I handled the technical end with "B", and "A" added about 10 percent and billed them. We found out last week that "B" has filed chapter 7 bankruptcy. My research found over 200 creditors they stiffed, many of them major corporations. I would imagine the
CEO and a select few drained every cent out before filing...

Probably a waste of time and energy to fill out all the court papers is my opinion.. Similar case years ago, except it was chapter 11. I filled out papers for at least a year, and got nothing..

Who would you fill out papers on? I believe you are technically owed by "A". "B" has no invoice from you, and the courts will not recognize "B" having any debt to you. "A" could fill out papers and hope to recover pennies on the dollar, and then maybe trickle 90% of those pennies down to you, but to be honest I doubt that will ever happen, as they are only out $300. Putting more time and effort into this on their end would cost them more than they could ever hope to recover.

Since "A" did the billing, they can probably write off the $3300 "loss" on their taxes next year. You may be able to write off the $3000 you billed "A" and never got paid for, but I'm not 100% sure of that, your accountant would know. Since "A" hasn't gone bankrupt, your invoice to them might just be considered an unpaid invoice for a few years.
 
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Mark, about the only thing that'd be worthwhile would be to find out whether they were already in Ch 11 prior to filing Ch 7. IIRC, anyone who's owed for debts incurred by a company that's in Ch 11 will have preferential payment over debts incurred prior to the Ch 11 filing.

Past that, I'd say any further effort is useless, particularly in relation to a Ch 7.

The bankruptcy courts are a perverted wart on the ass of justice that would make even the current Congress look like a fine bunch of first class citizens.

Here's a classic example of how these useless assholes totally fail to do their jobs or to uphold laws related to how businesses are supposedly required to operate.

Local guy works for several years as an estimator/project manager for the largest electrical contractor in the area. He quits and starts his own electrical contracting business. Starts out small, but once he's been in business for about 3 years, and long enough to have good credit established with suppliers and subs, he starts booking loads of work as compared to what you'd expect for a contractor with a few employees.

Simultaneously, he starts construction of a house worth something north of $1.5 million overlooking Lake Lure. Begins to slowly get behind on debts of the business, but any work done on the house is paid for straight away, and he's booking all costs related to the house as costs against the contract jobs he's got going on.

About the time the house is complete, he files Ch 7 with 7 figure debts and assets consisting of a few well used trucks and miscellaneous tools, etc. Federal bankruptcy auction ensues, and the total of the sale is less than $100K. The auction company got its cut, and the remainder went to the lawyers as is always the case.

But, wonder of wonders, he just happens to own the house free and clear. Of course it was built with money owed to suppliers and subs on the contract jobs.

Bankruptcy court did nothing more than rubber stamp the filing which claimed XXX assets and XXXXXX liabilities, along with a request for discharge via liquidation.

If this clown had paid himself a sufficient salary to cover building the house over a couple years, two things would've happened. One, the salary would've been totally out of line with the size of the company and its potential profitability. And two, he would've had state and federal tax liabilities exceeding 40% of the take, so it would've taken him longer to cover the cost of the house. But, by running the cost of the house thru the various jobs, he created a set of books that looked as if he'd just simply had costs that grossly exceeded the revenue from the jobs.

This is classic cut and dried tax evasion on his part since he didn't report the value of work done on the house as income. Its also a major case of fraud in that he illegally diverted money owed to creditors to his own personal use and profit.

If the court had taken even a cursory look at the circumstances, and ordered an analysis of his books, it would've become immediately obvious what he was doing. Any CPA firm familiar with accounting practices related to electrical contractors could've produced enough evidence within a few days to have put the house into the asset pool and his ass in hot water with the criminal court system. It doesn't take a genius to figure out it doesn't take lumber or brick work or any other such residential building materials to wire commercial jobs. There are relatively constant patterns to legitimate bankruptcy, in that the business gets in increasingly worse shape over a period of time, or some other party who owes the company a load of money goes bankrupt and takes the company down with them. He was paid for all the contract work he did, and went from operating profitably to supposedly incurring massive losses almost overnight. That doesn't fit the pattern, and, if the court was making any effort at all to protect the interests of the creditors, they would've ordered a closer look to learn whether it was caused by some set of unfortunate circumstances or if they were just dealing with a thief.

This all happened well in advance of the crash of real estate markets and the economy. If the house had been put into the asset pool as it should've been, it would've sold for enough to cover all the debts of the company. Instead, he ended up with the house debt free, plus another house he already owned that was worth something in the $300K range. Instead of the bankruptcy court doing its job in protecting the interest of the creditors, it has all too often become a body that gives sanction to the acts of so-called business people who are in fact nothing more than common criminals by any definition of the term.
 
This is from an English perspective - it's pretty much the same over here, as regards getting any money the court paperwork etc is a waste of time.

But, and IMO this is important for several reasons, having your name on an action to recover debts is no bad thing, it shows that you care about due process, and informs others that you will not take it lying down which IMHO can only help your reputation.
 








 
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