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Advise requested on integrating new tech into the shop

doug8cat

Titanium
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Location
Philadelphia
I work in shop that has been around for some 20+ years and doing well till about 2 years ago. There are reasons for this that won't go into, do to let us say personal issues (not mine) that could have been rather easily fixed, but I do have ideas on how to get back in the black. Problem is know one will do me the courtesy of even hearing me out. Shit man if had an employee that had ideas on how to improve my bottom line I would take the guy to lunch, listen an maybe even take notes, assuming he was not mad a as a hatter. BTW we are currently a 2 man shop 3 including the owner, I program, setup, run and repair the old girl ''98 an she is showing her age.

Just one example, which pretty much sums up the whole situation. We have one repeat job which requires boring out a 3" hole already present in the casting (cast Fe) to 4". Currently I interpolate it but this a huge waste of time. I suggested we go to the big Kaiser SW-19 step cutter, I have not done the math But from the chart I estimate it save between 45 min/hole. Average run 5 pieces, 6 holes each = time saved (conservatively) 1,350 minutes on the job, or 22.5 hours.

The one time I got usual half assed answer it was "That tool looks very expensive.". Well no shit it probably is, but most models show tooling to be 3-4% of job cost. An in one run of 5 pieces I am sure we would pay for the tool plus increase profit on the whole job. not mention give chap who thought of it a nice bonus.

Every single idea I come up with gets an excuse as why it is no good. Granted I am just a cog in the machine but I have managed other businesses, and have more letters after my name than the average bear. But they don't even show me the basic courtesy of sitting me down an hearing me out.

I get it, yes it worked fine for the last 20 years; but ain't 1979 any more. You keep up with latest tech or you die.

Am I a fool for even wasting my time, since I get paid whether the hole takes 5 minutes or 5 hours? I won't even get into my ideas on diversifying our shops capabilities. when I broach that subject I usually have to dodge an RPG.

I am very in interested in medicine an follow new technology closely. Now that a lot of procedures are being done with very small endoscopes an I expect to see an increase in demand for those parts. Another market we could look into (I have some contacts there as well). Incoming RPG:ack2:

Any ideas? Should I just take my check and be satisfied? I really would like to see the Co. grow an me with it. I have no problem working a 40-60 hour week, but I need something in return profit sharing etc. Don't get me wrong, yes I wanna make more money, who doesn't? But I love a challenge, an currently I am not challenged and growing increasingly BORED.

Thanks for sticking with me here. One last thing and correct me if I wrong. You need to be investing new (not some used piece of garbage) equipment and employee training (I cannot even get them to sen me to continuing education.) to stay competitive. Case an point, small parts i.e.endoscope components if don't have the latest swiss lathe your already behind your closest competitor.

Thanks for listening and I look forward to your ideas.
 
Sounds like your on the path to your own business to me. This is the typical scenario, boss/company doesn't see the opportunity. employee starts things on the side while maintaining his employment until things take off. Why waste the energy fighting when you can use it to develop something of your own?
 
Oh yhea I am running the job on a Cinci Lancer 2000 VMC, pretty sure that will swing it.

Mr. Factor,
That is the ultimate goal but $$$$ are needed. I also have a potentially big competitor (Sussex Wire) in my back yard, so speak. But if I were able to swing it and get a Swiss lathe I believe I would in a good position to enter into other product lines, aerospace, military etc.. But medical is my forte I spent 20 years in research, where you have to make a lot parts for very specialized applications. Plus I can walk the walk and talk the talk in the medical / research community. If someone asks for a shishboombang infundibulator, I can say okay how big and what is neutron flow rate.:D Yes I am certified card carrying nerd. Any single guy who has 9 rescued cats is a shoe in for the nerd card.
 
Buy the new wiz bangy thingy yourself and show the guy how much it saves him.

Put YOUR money were you mouth is.

If it doesn't work out, you can sell the thing on this forum, and not be out any more than a shipping charge.
 
the question is this: is other work backlogged to run during the hours saved or would it strictly be labor reduction: If there is nothing else to run and you are not babysitting it whats it actually cost in man hours to do the new tool vs the old one? It comes down to what you get paid for the job and whether the time is worth the investment ( or you need to produce more of them to keep up with the customer). On low volume sometimes the wizbang can be a money pit......

this from shop owner perspective. I am all for doing it better but I can cheap out on low volume jobs for tooling.
 
Won't look so pretty when the latest whiz-bang rips the part out of the fixture and trashes the spindle

Who has to pay for those fuckups?
 
FYI I think its time to go it alone, you know enough, just a case of if you can do all the other crap being self employed entails, because generally the maching is just part of it and whilst a key part, it aint the most significant!

I too can't stand the this is the way we have always done it, as for new tooling tearing up the spindle get real, most of those twin headed boring tools actually balance the forces off on the inserts in the other side, its more akin to drilling than boring force wise on the spindle. Its the stupid retarded comments like that places like that thrive on.

Secrets keeping growth at maintainable levels, its very easy to over expand then collapse or fail too expand then collapse. Equally there’s nothing wrong with old tech approaches, newer is not always faster - cheaper. Remember cost per part down means profit up. You have to hit a sensible balance between progress and making a profit on every job.
 
My first thought is that of Willey's, and I would NOT buy the whiz-bang myself - unless I intended to run the part myself!


I also second (third) the idea of stretching your legs. Maybe it's as easy as it looks out here.
You don't hafta have the latest and greatest to compete. You just need a few more hours.
A 2000 Swiss and any big VMC/HMC will run your parts. You may have more downtime, but if'n you're a geek, you should be able to fix it yourself.

So - it's actually Doug9cat?

.. and "3208" aint one of them? :skep:



------------------------------

I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!
 
Oh yhea I am running the job on a Cinci Lancer 2000 VMC, pretty sure that will swing it.

Mr. Factor,
That is the ultimate goal but $$$$ are needed. I also have a potentially big competitor (Sussex Wire) in my back yard, so speak. But if I were able to swing it and get a Swiss lathe I believe I would in a good position to enter into other product lines, aerospace, military etc.. But medical is my forte I spent 20 years in research, where you have to make a lot parts for very specialized applications. Plus I can walk the walk and talk the talk in the medical / research community. If someone asks for a shishboombang infundibulator, I can say okay how big and what is neutron flow rate.:D Yes I am certified card carrying nerd. Any single guy who has 9 rescued cats is a shoe in for the nerd card.

From my experience, the big competitors usually are not interested in the lower quantity, more complex type of parts. Your industry may be different, but thats my knowledge from the advanced materials realm. As far the big guys are concerned, they are glad someone is taking the customer that is bugging the shit out of them.

So in the end, suck it up and play ball at your shop, or get busy trying to figure a way to make it happen on your own terms. It's a tough road, but life's no fun without a little adventure ;)
 
Yup Ox 9 of 'em from when I worked @ vet emergency clinic.

Merlin: rescued from dumpster along with Scot (he pass soon after, too sick an young.)

Pigeon: strangled by a 3 year old, severe brain damage.

You get the idea.

BTW Thanks for all your words of encouragement, I really wanna go on my own, but it is tough road, as ya'll know.
Not afraid to work 40-60 hours a week, especially for me.
And yes I fix just about anything, if not a I got a long list of folks that can help out; been building that for years.
 
Not afraid to work 40-60 hours a week, especially for me.

That's good.
Once your well established - after say 10-20 yrs, maybe you can settle down to that. :D


Otherwise - stay where you're at and bitch and moan.


-------------------------

I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!
 
That's good.
Once your well established - after say 10-20 yrs, maybe you can settle down to that. :D


Otherwise - stay where you're at and bitch and moan.


-------------------------

I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

Yeah no kidding. Got to love the summer. Been hittin' it kind harder than I like and thought I was a bit grumpy. Went to bed at 10. Got up at 6 to pee. Looked at the dog, he looked and me, and we agreed it's not time to get up. Next thing I know it's 10 AM.

I haven't slept that late since college.
 
shop that has been around for some 20+ years but how long have you been there?
All kinds of reasons a shop won't listen.. the boss wants to have all the god ideas,they have $8,000 worth of inserts to use up.someone said thee is not enough RPM or HP for that cutter or process... perhaps good excuses or dumb ones but still the boss or owner can choose.
My friend who was a top grinder hand worked for years at a shop that would not ever consider using coolant on the surface grinders.. A top name tool cutter shop making precision spade form tools mostly for the facet and valve industry.. the owner was (likely) a millionaire but held tight to that idea "No coolant on my grinders."

Be polite ,Keep giving suggestions in a nice way, Do much research and know what you are talking about for sure, be thankful for the pay check,try to gain the confidence of the boss not try to out do him.
 
I work in shop that has been around for some 20+ years and doing well till about 2 years ago. There are reasons for this that won't go into, do to let us say personal issues (not mine) that could have been rather easily fixed, but I do have ideas on how to get back in the black. Problem is know one will do me the courtesy of even hearing me out. Shit man if had an employee that had ideas on how to improve my bottom line I would take the guy to lunch, listen an maybe even take notes, assuming he was not mad a as a hatter. BTW we are currently a 2 man shop 3 including the owner, I program, setup, run and repair the old girl ''98 an she is showing her age.

Just one example, which pretty much sums up the whole situation. We have one repeat job which requires boring out a 3" hole already present in the casting (cast Fe) to 4". Currently I interpolate it but this a huge waste of time. I suggested we go to the big Kaiser SW-19 step cutter, I have not done the math But from the chart I estimate it save between 45 min/hole. Average run 5 pieces, 6 holes each = time saved (conservatively) 1,350 minutes on the job, or 22.5 hours.

The one time I got usual half assed answer it was "That tool looks very expensive.". Well no shit it probably is, but most models show tooling to be 3-4% of job cost. An in one run of 5 pieces I am sure we would pay for the tool plus increase profit on the whole job. not mention give chap who thought of it a nice bonus.

Every single idea I come up with gets an excuse as why it is no good. Granted I am just a cog in the machine but I have managed other businesses, and have more letters after my name than the average bear. But they don't even show me the basic courtesy of sitting me down an hearing me out.

I get it, yes it worked fine for the last 20 years; but ain't 1979 any more. You keep up with latest tech or you die.

Am I a fool for even wasting my time, since I get paid whether the hole takes 5 minutes or 5 hours? I won't even get into my ideas on diversifying our shops capabilities. when I broach that subject I usually have to dodge an RPG.

I am very in interested in medicine an follow new technology closely. Now that a lot of procedures are being done with very small endoscopes an I expect to see an increase in demand for those parts. Another market we could look into (I have some contacts there as well). Incoming RPG:ack2:

Any ideas? Should I just take my check and be satisfied? I really would like to see the Co. grow an me with it. I have no problem working a 40-60 hour week, but I need something in return profit sharing etc. Don't get me wrong, yes I wanna make more money, who doesn't? But I love a challenge, an currently I am not challenged and growing increasingly BORED.

Thanks for sticking with me here. One last thing and correct me if I wrong. You need to be investing new (not some used piece of garbage) equipment and employee training (I cannot even get them to sen me to continuing education.) to stay competitive. Case an point, small parts i.e.endoscope components if don't have the latest swiss lathe your already behind your closest competitor.

Thanks for listening and I look forward to your ideas.

You're the one guy in a 2 man shop and the owner won't listen to you? OMG LOL

Either the owner doesn't have high thoughts on believing how much you think you know or you're presenting your "ideas" in a way that's "unacceptable".

Some ideas have to be "sold" rather than "told".
 
Gordon,
I'm doing a most all the things you folks have suggested. The owner and I get along very well, but he is in his 80s and kind set in his ways. I am always very respectful and try to always present my ideas as part of the team, and NOT to out do anyone. I know it might not be the wisest thing but often do work at home off the clock and am always reading about new software, management techniques, pricing and bidding strategies plus looking for new tooling to boost profits.
 
The owner and I get along very well, but he is in his 80s and kind set in his ways.

No 'age' info in your own profile, but if your are even TEN years younger, you should realize that he has vastly different goals for what remains of his run that you have.

MORE than ten year age gap, that trends towards infinity.

Make a choice for yerself. One way or another. As-in JF Deal with what is. Buy him out. Or move-on.

He's made HIS choices. Must have worked well-enough, as he is STILL the 'owner'.

Ergo that particular part of life's ocean is not up for your boiling.

Bill
 
He maybe 80 but we really have a good relationship, he always will listen my ideas an knows I want the best for his Co..
That being said the only I would buy out that Co. if I could get it at fire sale price.
What I really want is go it on my own, but we all know how hard that is, but I am will to do what it takes to make it happen. But I would have to start it while still working there or someplace. Cause the mortgage Co. doesn't care that I am starting a business an won't be paying them for a while!
 
the mortgage Co. doesn't care that I am starting a business an won't be paying them for a while!

I am not a believer in the 'J curve' for smallholders. Nor even fond of it for a partial division within a larger firm.

If an enterprise cannot support itself in Year ONE so obligations can be honoured and a return gained on investment?

Wiser to work harder to find a different course that can do.

Bill
 








 
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