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China technology stealer ordered one of our parts.....Don't think he will get it.....

huleo

Hot Rolled
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Feb 12, 2014
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UT
EDIT. I figure I probably should not publicize until I research this a bit.

What I do know is the buyer is a CEO for a fortune 500 international e-commerce business. Right now I am sort of suspecting him to be doing market research and plucking parts to send to China but not sure yet. All I know is this is about as out of place as a 70yo necktie at a Miley concert.
 
It's called getting screwed, and believe it or not, has always a part of business, - live with it.
Probably not what you want to hear, but there's sweet FA you can do about it, move on.
 
Well we already decided to F up a part and send it over. Plan to change the bores and centers. Hopefully they send it right out to be made....

I think we will certainly play some sort of game with them. After all, this guy has NO CLUE what he is even buying.
 
Along the same lines, there are a remnants of 150++ year old olive orchards in our neighborhood -- along with a couple caves for storage of olive oil barrels. The story is that years ago some California entrepreneur sent away to Italy or Spain (can't remember which) for primo stock -- planning to compete in the virgin olive oil business. Apparently they were sent the lousiest stock possible . . . bitter . . . and all that's left are some gnarly trees planted in the remnants of rows and a couple damp caves.
 
Enjoy.

But ... he may have done more homework than you have... so far at least.

What he'll have after 'buying' just may have been your entire company.
At a nice retire-young price to boot.

:)

Holy shit Bill!!!
Did I just repair that post for you?
Or have I missed every single piece of it in it's entirety?
 
Well we already decided to F up a part and send it over. Plan to change the bores and centers. Hopefully they send it right out to be made....

I think we will certainly play some sort of game with them. After all, this guy has NO CLUE what he is even buying.

Let me get this straight. The customer is buying a part from you which you deliberately intend to make and sell "fucked up"? You then publically announce that this is what you intend doing?

Are you trying to get your ass sued off?

The customer orders something, you make it and he pays. Unless you have it patented or legally protected there's damn all you can do to prevent him from copying it. You could legally say "No thanks" to the order. What you intend doing is criminal and could cost you your company.
 
technology

EDIT. I figure I probably should not publicize until I research this a bit.

What I do know is the buyer is a CEO for a fortune 500 international e-commerce business. Right now I am sort of suspecting him to be doing market research and plucking parts to send to China but not sure yet. All I know is this is about as out of place as a 70yo necktie at a Miley concert.
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the trend is to buy technology from who ever wants to sell it which the Germans, Swiss, Japanese, etc have no problem selling. i once thought optical alignment equipment was not available in China til i walked in a store in Shanghai and saw vastly massive more amounts of superior optical equipment for sale from many countries that i have never seen in the USA
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the other trend is to form business partnerships of a USA company literally with China government as a partner. the partner usually sends technology maybe less than 10 years old and send experts to China to train the people. i have seen where drawings were withheld but if your partner wants to maintain machines they need to know original specs to tell if parts are in tolerance so eventually they get the drawings
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the other thing i have seen is the China government to form partnerships with one say Japanese competitor for say 5 years and when time is up form partnership with USA competitor and quite literally the Japanese machines in the old Japanese factory were sent to the USA company for study to see how it works. this is one way they get USA company to form partnership by offering a competitors machines for study. this by the way is a fairly standard business practice. if one partner does not give whats wanted then go to the competitor. it is probably taught in 1st year business school
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if you really think technology does not eventually travel around the world you are mistaken. the Chinese wanted to keep Silk production in China about 600 years ago. it eventually got to Europe. what comes around goes back around eventually
 
It is a difficult situation for any business sector to deal with when it is "known" that the product you are selling is going to be in a position where it can be copied by a competitor. In the metrology instrumentation business, complex measurement systems are sold to many foreign end-users, often through intermediary distribution/service groups, and keeping absolute control over where those systems end up is not practically possible. It is possible, though, to choose not to sell a system to any given prospective end-user. My company (in past history) did that on several occasions, not including refused sales for more obvious reasons such as ITAR or other export restriction. It is also possible, at minimum, to attempt to protect your trade secrets and technology by having tamper-proof seals on sensitive hardware. This only makes a difference for later service purposes, though. If a competitor is motivated enough (and rich enough), they can buy anything and copy it, one way or another. The only real solution to preventing meaningful competition is to build the best product, and make sure the customer base knows that.
 
there is not much technology in this world that if a USA company refuses to sell that a German, Swiss, or Japanese company does not have a equivalent product.
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or say a Swiss company buys from USA company and turns around and sells in to China company. i have also seen high technology equipment abandoned when not needed and available for junk yard prices.
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i saw a $100,000 radiation metal analyzer device available at junk yard sale for $10,000. After a $50,000,000 factory was setup it was thought to be no longer needed. i am not sure if anybody bought it. it might have been sold for scrap metal.
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you might be surprised at the huge amounts of high tech equipment abandoned when done with by foreign partner setting up factories. the Chinese junk yards can be a eye opening experience
 
Wow. I can't believe what I'm reading. Honestly OP, you do not deserve to work in this business. At all. This is extremely unprofessional, quite possibly posing your firm to liability issues and also quite possibly racist/xenophobic. It is not your job to worry about this. This is the job of law enforcement and intelligence. If you don't like the customer you should downright reject the order. Not to take their money and then send them something you purposely tamper with. Do you know what they will use it for? What if human lives are at risk because you send them a purposely tampered with product that leads to failure and death/injury? Are lives of foreign nationals living in other countries not worth anything to you that you will knowingly send them a defective product?

And how do you figure who he is and what his intent is? Is it a local company manned by an ethnically chinese CEO? Or is this an overseas company manned by an ethnically chinese CEO? If it is the former, then thats downright racist. Is this like how we round up ethnic japanese nationals during WW2 because we fear they are spies for imperial japan simply because they are ethnically japanese or hold dual nationality?

Again. Just wow. OP should not be allowed to be in the manufacturing business at all. Stick to your job. Your job is to make your product. Don't like a customer? Fine. Don't take their money. Thats the only pejorative you have. But if you take their money, you better damn well make it right. If they really are trying to steal from you? That is the job of law enforcement to deal with. Not you, the armchair guy who really doesn't know any better. With your kind of attitude, it is basically impossible to do international commerce this way.
 
Unless you are making very big controlled things like CMMs or weapon systems I see no way to prevent this.
I would not buy my competitors stuff or things I'm looking at getting into making under my own name as I don't want you to know.
I do this a lot to evaluate others products against my own.
If they have bad intentions it won't take them long to figure you out but they may be more interested in tool marks, material composition, heat treat, and such more than actual functional dimensions.
Often you do this to get an insight into the other guy's manufacturing methods.
Send a known bad part and you give them all this information with the added benefit that they can reject the part as bad, send it back, and not pay you for it.
They win-win, you .......

Fairly common practice at mid and large size manufacturing companies as you want to test and benchmark your stuff against the other guys.
The very first sales of any new car model ends up in a competing plant being dissected and documented to the last bolt and nut.
Bob
 
Let me get this straight. The customer is buying a part from you which you deliberately intend to make and sell "fucked up"? You then publically announce that this is what you intend doing?

Are you trying to get your ass sued off?

The customer orders something, you make it and he pays. Unless you have it patented or legally protected there's damn all you can do to prevent him from copying it. You could legally say "No thanks" to the order. What you intend doing is criminal and could cost you your company.

I know. This is completely unacceptable behavior. That is what patents are for in our system of law. If someone is stealing from you, its the job of law enforcement to handle it. Don't like the product sent to a place where there is no rule of law? Refuse the order. As for the nation vs nation game? That is the work of intelligence and the state department, not for some armchair quarterbacking machinist with a racist/xenophobic agenda.

The correct way to handle this is to refuse the order.

Seriously how can any of OP's domestic clients even trust a guy like the OP? I would not do business with a guy like him who thinks and schemes little things like this in the back of his mind all the time. Even local clients of his cannot trust him. Unreliable, not dependable, and shady.

Our system is compartmentalized for a reason. People just need to do their job. If you're a machinist you manufacture. If you're a manufacturer, you manufacture. If there is some national interest thing, then those agencies will deal with it. If they need your help they will come to you. Its not your job to scheme up things like this on your own and likely leading to death or injury of those who buy your product expecting something that works.
 
It is a difficult situation for any business sector to deal with when it is "known" that the product you are selling is going to be in a position where it can be copied by a competitor. In the metrology instrumentation business, complex measurement systems are sold to many foreign end-users, often through intermediary distribution/service groups, and keeping absolute control over where those systems end up is not practically possible. It is possible, though, to choose not to sell a system to any given prospective end-user. My company (in past history) did that on several occasions, not including refused sales for more obvious reasons such as ITAR or other export restriction. It is also possible, at minimum, to attempt to protect your trade secrets and technology by having tamper-proof seals on sensitive hardware. This only makes a difference for later service purposes, though. If a competitor is motivated enough (and rich enough), they can buy anything and copy it, one way or another. The only real solution to preventing meaningful competition is to build the best product, and make sure the customer base knows that.

Exactly. This OP is basically going the route of lawlessness and vigilante justice. This is what laws are for. Patents to protect your IP. ITAR and export restrictions if there are sensitive technology the country has decided they don't want to leave the country. These are the proper channels.

Regarding CMM, Mitutoyo got in trouble in japan for exporting CMM also. Is it the job of Mitutoyo to mess around with the CMM and make it less accurate? No. They should build the product properly like they do for every other customer. It may or may not get sent to the recipients. And then the armed drones from the military will take care of the rest with orders coming from the people paid to make these decisions. This is how the proper channels and chain of command works in this compartmentalized world we live in with rules, regulations and law. People just need to stick to doing their job and doing it well, not try to do something that is frankly way above their pay grade.

Lets look at a similar example with the Human Genome Project. There were two teams tackling that project in the 80s-90s. The publicly funded scientists, and the private corporation. They were adversarial. Each trying to outwit the other and claim the prize. The publicly funded scientists used traditional techniques. It was slow and labor intensive. The other side was the private corporation, Celera Corporation. They focused on automation. They made machines that did the work and they were able to achieve must better throughput. As it turns out, the public scientists needed the machines also because they realized automation was superior. Did Celera Corporation not sell these scientists the machines because they wanted to come out on top? NO! They did the right thing in our capitalistic society. They sold their own competitors the machines that will help to compete in the Human Genome Project. They figured they made money both ways anyway. A beautiful story of capitalism.
 
that why German economy is booming. they sell a lot of stuff to China that maybe a USA company will not sell. and a lot of USA companies buy the same German made equipment because it is some of the best in the world.
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at one time Volkswagen was the largest car manufacturer in China. they formed a Chinese partnership agreement a long time ago.
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patent laws are usually only good for like 15 years. not much will give any technology any more protection than that. i have seen USA companies not patent stuff to keep it secret and then when a competitor patents it they are locked out of the market. many USA patents are from Japanese and German companies
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by the way ALL patents explain the technology so someone familiar with the art can reproduce it. that is the purpose of the patent system. i have looked up my old companies patents and found more info on it than i found in the building where the equipment was installed and operating for many years. the biggest technology sharing is done by the different countries patent sites
 
......
The correct way to handle this is to refuse the order
........

Outside of special cases, I'm sorry but you can't.
Well, actually you can but it's not legal and you can then be sued.
There are ways to pull this off but you had better know how to make this exception if the outside guy is coming after your product.
(This is why you pay your legal advice the big bucks.)
Bob
 
if his company sells a patented product than the technology is freely available and explained to everybody already
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go search patents from all countries. i have rarely seen any technology not explained in the patent
 
Why would anybody buy direct if they were trying to reverse-engineer something? Also, does OP think China is full of idiots who can't engineer for themselves? You mess up a few features (on a single part, no less) and actually think that will prevent someone from engineering the optimum locations and tolerances?
 
Outside of special cases, I'm sorry but you can't.
Well, actually you can but it's not legal and you can then be sued.
There are ways to pull this off but you had better know how to make this exception if the outside guy is coming after your product.
(This is why you pay your legal advice the big bucks.)
Bob

Why is it illegal to refuse to take orders from customers? Companies refuse orders from customers all the time.

This is why most companies ask you to get a quote from them. You can downright refuse if you don't like your customer. We're talking about things made to order. Not acting as a retailer. There is no laws preventing you from refusing work. This is absolutely the way to go about it, from the perspective of a machinist or manufacturer.

All that stuff about modifying/tampering with your own product so another nation doesn't get something? Thats not your job as a manufacturer or a machinist. Way way above your paygrade. There are government agencies tasked to make and execute these decisions if it is so deemed important enough. If they require your assistance in the process, they will contact you. It is way above the paygrade of a machinist to decide on their own behalf to mess with a design so another country doesn't get it. This kind of attitude also hurts international commerce. We're supposed to have moved on from this cold war stuff and embracing globalization and cooperation. And even if we are not, these kind of decisions are left to the people tasked with making these decisions, not some manufacturer.

Like they say in the army, you are on a need to know basis. Its compartmentalized. So just do your job as you are told and don't make decisions by yourself, because frankly you don't know any better what the greater goal is.
 
OMG! I said that in haste! I will better learn to just keep my comments and thoughts to myself.

No, we are not sending the guy a part. He will probably obtain another way but I don't care. Refusing to sell is not hardly illegal. Already talked to the lawyer about it. At the very least, the law needs to know what he is up to...

I am also not so blinded as to think they "want to buy our company"...lol I have all the bread crumbs I need to prove what he is doing.

For the record, the guy is white as white but he is an American (not in my book) pumping parts to China that he is doing market research on.

If you honestly want to know what roasts my ass it is that these companies are killing the design and innovation spirit. Our company saw a need for something, spend the long hours and money to develop it, then attempt to make a buck and gamble lots of dollars to make lots of them to sell.... The some asshat comes along without an engineering brick in his head and just duplicates it. He has no time, no effort, just make what he makes.

Yes, I know it is done every day, but that hardly excuses it. I am quite honestly shocked as to the position from machinists here. Maybe there is a majority of job shops here and less design shops.

I know in another electro part we make, we take the pain staking time to destroy ALL electric component markings and pot the part. It costs us a LOT more and yes, I already know "if someone wants it bad enough". But does that mean I should just hand it over on a Silver platter?

I am rather shocked as to the position of Americans today! So weak, so soft, don't want to offend.... Feel sorry for China.... I am sure there are plenty of places there that innovate but there is also a HUGE % that only seek to rip off proven work. Funny, I don't see many Americans buying crap from China and duping it and selling it back to China.... Yes, I know the laws of economics.

What makes me sick is the govt does not care, and even people here don't care. The guys here bitch every day about how "american mfg is going away".... Wonder why???

If there is one things for sure, I will assert my opinion and stand up to say something. Even today, I live in a society that will literally watch a robbery or assault happen. "just grab a cell phone"... Morals are being traded in for government programming.
 








 
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