What's new
What's new

company owned measuring instruments / calibration / storage - how do you handle this?

motion guru

Diamond
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Location
Yacolt, WA
What kind of practices do shops have with regard to company owned measuring equipment, calibration, and storage?

We are marching down the path of AS9100 certification and we are seeing a need to get a system in place that allows us to do inspection of parts with calibrated measurement tools that are sequestered in a climate controlled area.

None of the parts we will be measuring are large (i.e. typically smaller than 12 inches in any dimension) but from time to time, we will need to measure hole locations that might be up to 72 inches from a datum . . . and at some point we will need to purchase a CMM to do this.

We could build a room with a roll up garage door or something like that with a dedicated HVAC system or ???

Anyone who has been down the AS9100 track have any guidance for us?
 
Room with its own HVAC is a good idea. You don't want drafts (so baffle air sources). Also don't want sun shining directly on anything you intend to measure or measure with. You may want a double door for a sort of air lock -- to avoid spilling that conditioned air every time someone walks inside. Nothing fancy, but swinging doors with a bit of space between probably beat a roll up. If you really need a big door, consider putting a conventional door within it.

I'm guessing that the holes spaced 72" from a datum probably don't always have to be super accurate (e.g +/- .005"?) -- and it might be convenient to do some of this in the shop. So don't box yourself into a spec that requires dragging everything into your conditioned room if a 6' caliper on the shop floor will do for things like machinery bolt hole locations.

While you're at it, you might want to create something like a "spec guide for machinery and controls buyers." Folks used to specifying machined parts may add to their own costs and headaches with too-tight tolerances. You probably know a lot more about where accuracy is and isn't needed than many of your customers -- along with ideas to get the best machine/controls at the best price and delivery. Could even turn it into a marketing handout for prospective customers -- and position your company as the industry's leader.
 
What kind of practices do shops have with regard to company owned measuring equipment, calibration, and storage?
Just about every shop here has a tool room because they don't trust anyone ... most of it is just common sense but :

Almost every air conditioner in China is the split type - the fan and cold air coils in the room, the compressor outside, connected by two refrigerant pipes. They do have those in the US but they don't seem to be as popular. Well, they ought to be. They work MUCH better for an individual room like you are describing.

You probaly want a locking door or sliding gate for security but during work hours, mostly places here (100* + temperatures) use hanging plastic strips. Just brush through them to pass through. The other one that is getting more common is an air curtain - just a fan that blows a stream of higher-pressure air straight down at the doorway. Don't know how effective that is but it's the least intrusive.

A networked computer in the room with some sort of inventory control is a nice addition. Or stay old-fashioned and hire a cute toolroom girl and give her a pencil and some paper forms for checkin and checkout :D
 
Motion, your questions seem to be rather broad and general in nature, so perhaps you guys are just "starting out" so to speak, and don't have a clear direction yet...?

I don't have any specific insights into the quality systems, although I've worked in a couple ISO9001 & TS16949 places. I understand the spirit of these programs is to improve traceability, accountability and repeatability. My own personal experience working in these environments however, is that they do not guarantee one iota, that your company will experience higher quality, more repeatable, trustable measurements at all. In my opinion, I think it actually lowers the standard of care given to accurate, repeatable measurements, as many things get taken for granted & never questioned...

Usually, these "quality" departments get handed over to someone with questionable measuring/inspection skills with priority given to following procedure to the letter. Regardless of how flawed that procedure is, and regardless of their actual skill in carrying out those procedures. Perhaps worst of all, these folks seldom ever question weather the procedure is good practice or not, and thus, blindly maintain the status quo.

As an example, one place mandated that micrometers be "calibrated" every 6 months, and were required to have signed inspection stickers. No machinist worth his salt would dare trust a set of mic's that were last calibrated 5 months ago, let alone by someone not particularly skilled in using them. But if that's what the procedure states, that's what must be adhered to.

So please understand that the certification will not actually improve the "accuracy" of your measuring at all, and may actually impede it. (I'm sure you're aware of this, but this is totally inconceivable to far too many people, in far too many quality departments.)

If at all possible, try to allow for more direct-user control over the tools, calibrating procedures and intervals. This sounds counter-intuitive to the nature of these quality systems, but for precision measuring, it will allow your skilled machinists to have more control over the "quality" of their work, rather than be hamstrung by some poorly written governing procedure. Build some checks & balances in there to insure the accountability, but allow your skilled guys to exercise their skill... (I could give more "experience" related examples if you wanted...)



----- ----- ----- ----- -----



Regarding the controlled room/environment - Roll-up doors with windows are really nice from a practical perspective, and I would highly recommend it over a set of double doors, which are commonly used. Even if the roll-up door is used infrequently, it does allow moving in larger parts/equipment, even using a forklift if needed. The downside is that it may require more time for the room to reach equilibrium after opening the roll-up door for any length of time. If the shop was already climate controlled, then isolating the "quality" room would require much less care, although I don't think you have that option currently.



----- ----- ----- ----- -----



Regarding CMM's - I think far too many people have the wrong idea about them. I think too many people blindly put their faith in these machines as being the be-all-end-all, last word of high precision measurements. The tool to use when you need the absolute highest accuracy measurements, regardless of how long it takes... :blahblah:

In truth, I think it's exactly the opposite. Granted, the machines themselves are capable of astounding precision. (IF everything else is carefully thought out that is...)

I actually think of these as the quick, low-cost option to inspect high-mix parts & features where it doesn't make sense to invest in durable hard gages & inspection routines. If you don't need micron level accuracy of roundness & concentricity between two turned diameters of a 1-off part, then skip fiddling with the costly bench-center & indicators, and toss it on the CMM. It'll be quicker. Same for a rather lengthy inspection done on a surface plate. The CMM will be quicker on low quantities.

Have 500 to make? The hard-gages are far superior in many ways... In this scenario, the CMM is simply used to "sanity check" any strange results from the hard-gages.

My point about the CMM, is that they're far too often taken for granted and misunderstood. People rely too heavily on them, without questioning their own skills, procedures & good sense when inspecting features & parts. "If the CMM said it, it must be so..."*** is often the mantra of CMM operators & supervisors. Similar to the old line, "We made it on the CNC - it can't be wrong..."*** :blahblah:

However, as many people on this forum understand, garbage in, garbage out...

Judging by your posts, I'm sure you & your company have more sense than is common, and are more apt to better understand the correct use & limitations of a CMM. Just be careful not to fall into the trap...


I hope these ramblings are at least somewhat helpful...









***EDIT: Put those ^ two guys in a room together, and watch sparks of ignorance fly... :stirthepot: :argue: :popcorn:
 
Last edited:
First up, thanks for the replies. We are experiencing two developments simultaneously that motivated this post. First, our aerospace business is growing by an order of magnitude and second we just did a pre-submittal of plans to the city for a new 50,000 square foot facility for the permitting process and we only have about 90 days to make any significant changes before it starts getting really expensive to make changes.

We don't make parts for the aerospace industry, we make machines that primarily test sub-assemblies so this puts us into the "Tooling Supplier" realm and as such there are standards that we need to toe the line on if we want to be able to respond to the growing number of RFP's.

Also, we have upwards of 12,000 sq ft of space planned for HVAC coverage (office and lab environments) and the city codes define how we do air exchange, vestibules, etc. so I was hoping to get some ideas to pitch to our HVAC supplier and architect to figure out how best to use the space we have planned.

The AS9100 (and additionally DPD) requirements were spelled out to us within the last two weeks. This is primarily driven by us doing work in the past for Boeing Research and Technology (where the focus is on development) and now being asked to do more work for Boeing Commercial Aircraft Company (where the focus is on consistency and traceability).
 
Anyone who has been down the AS9100 track have any guidance for us?


We are not AS 9100 but are ISO 9001, and all of this should be done by EVERY shop that produces anything thats not shit. If you don't trace back to a standard you are guessing.

Don't over constrain yourself with inappropriate intervals of inspection make them 2-5 years depending on usage.

CHECK your equipment vs. standards continuously. have a way to cross check standards. The odds of multiple standards being wrong is incredibly statistically unlikely. The more often you use the equipment the more you should check it.

The rest of your questions are less to do with ISO/ASQ and more to do with your own shop practices on metrology.

I think the type of door to have with your CMM is far less important than making sure your HVAC in the entire shop is dialed in. The separate room is only good if the HVAC in the room is good, if the air is not sufficiently turbulent and diffused in that room you will have gradients than an entire shops gradients. The whole purpose of the room is to get one consistent temperature.
 
The gauge lab in the ISO9001 / TS16949 was setup like this. And be forewarned that it was setup the exact same way before we were alphanumeric certified.

Large room in the middle of the plant approximately 20 x 50. Ceiling was full height (18'?). 3 ton crane covered everything. The room housed an optical comparator, an Adcole machine, and a 5 x 10 CMM. It was entered through a set of double man doors, so when needed, you could have a 72" x 80" opening to get parts in.

Adjacent to this room was a smaller room, probably 20 x 20 with 8' ceilings. Full of cabinets and surface plates. Used for storing gauges, mics, calibration rings, etc. that were not in use. Also held the gauge certifying gauges, and a couple of 2' x 3' surface plates for quick & dirty checks. It had a sliding window to the shop. Most business was done through this sliding window.

It had it a dedicated HVAC system that was roof mounted. Temperature & humidity was recorded daily.

Mercy to the soul who ever brought any dirty parts inside this room. Any part to be checked had to first be washed in some way, thoroughly flushed, blown dry, and had time to normalize back to room temp (hot water cleaning cause part temps to rise). Every hole better be blown out individually.
 
We are not AS 9100 but are ISO 9001, and all of this should be done by EVERY shop that produces anything thats not shit. If you don't trace back to a standard you are guessing.

Don't over constrain yourself with inappropriate intervals of inspection make them 2-5 years depending on usage.

CHECK your equipment vs. standards continuously. have a way to cross check standards. The odds of multiple standards being wrong is incredibly statistically unlikely. The more often you use the equipment the more you should check it.

The rest of your questions are less to do with ISO/ASQ and more to do with your own shop practices on metrology.

I think the type of door to have with your CMM is far less important than making sure your HVAC in the entire shop is dialed in. The separate room is only good if the HVAC in the room is good, if the air is not sufficiently turbulent and diffused in that room you will have gradients than an entire shops gradients. The whole purpose of the room is to get one consistent temperature.

Not to highjack thread, but how much would it cost a small shop to prove they do good work and get that fancy certification? Everyone I have talked to says avoid it unless you have to as you have to hire extra personel just to handle all the unnecessary paperwork? One of my customers regrets doing it, but he had to do it to appease his aerospace customer.
 
Motion, your questions seem to be rather broad and general in nature, so perhaps you guys are just "starting out" so to speak, and don't have a clear direction yet...?

snip

Usually, these "quality" departments get handed over to someone with questionable measuring/inspection skills with priority given to following procedure to the letter. Regardless of how flawed that procedure is, and regardless of their actual skill in carrying out those procedures. Perhaps worst of all, these folks seldom ever question weather the procedure is good practice or not, and thus, blindly maintain the status quo.

snip

Judging by your posts, I'm sure you & your company have more sense than is common, and are more apt to better understand the correct use & limitations of a CMM. Just be careful not to fall into the trap...


I hope these ramblings are at least somewhat helpful...

An example of some nonsense I have seen... Was once told could not mark (newly acquired) parts starting with 123-456 (not sure the exact numbers) because it would 'violate' the current procedures with an existing customer. W T F!?!! Who in their right mind (see the 'blindly' above :toetap:) would write some procedure so detailed/picky to box themselves into something so stupid? Now to clarify, I know companies do have standards on how they want a park marked -machine engraved, laser etch, bag&tag, etc, but it should not dictate "our part numbers all start with 439 so they are off limits for anyone else". :rolleyes5:

.
 
An example of some nonsense I have seen... Was once told could not mark (newly acquired) parts starting with 123-456 (not sure the exact numbers) because it would 'violate' the current procedures with an existing customer. W T F!?!! Who in their right mind (see the 'blindly' above :toetap:) would write some procedure so detailed/picky to box themselves into something so stupid? Now to clarify, I know companies do have standards on how they want a park marked -machine engraved, laser etch, bag&tag, etc, but it should not dictate "our part numbers all start with 439 so they are off limits for anyone else". :rolleyes5:

.

Most customers in the automotive world tell you exactly what part numbers you shall use and those will not be used by any other automotive company you do work for. This is to keep you from marking the same number or series of numbers on competitors parts so they have traceability back to you as the supplier.
 
Motion, We are not AS but we are ISO/TS and whatever the new one is called. We have different levels of "inspection lab". We have a metrology lab (certified) where all of our gauges are calibrated to NIST / ISO standards. Frequency of calibration is linked to usage. All hand gauges, indicators, height gauges, masters, etc are calibrated yearly, every gauge has a serial number and we keep up with the 15,000+ gauges via software. This room is mid-plant with an isolated, dedicated, very precisely controlled HVAC / Humidity system (read very expensive) 1 insulated man door, 1 insulated double man door are the access points.

Then we have the in-process inspection labs where most of the cmm's, round scans, form testers, etc are located. These are also temperature/humidity controlled but not as precisely as the metrology lab must be. We don't have such large parts, so there is only single / double man doors. (double doors are for moving equipment in/out when the need arises). But the manufacturing plant floor is also controlled temperature, so there isn't a huge change or ingress of heat / cold when the doors to the lab are opened and stabilization is realized rather quickly after a door is utilized.

I think the amount of time the access is opened at a given time is going to play a major role in how you design the space. If it takes a couple of hours with the door open to get a part in or out, then you have much larger challenges with stabilization and a pre-stage or air curtain area may make sense. Depending on thicknesses and material type, they will need to be in the lab for 1 hour up to several days to thermally stabilize. Something 72" long is going to take a while to stabilize unless it is very thin section, so it may not be such a huge issue to have the door open for 30 minutes or so.
 
One could just temp control the entire building. :)
Often you see the use of double doors to the entrance.
Beware of air flow and stratification. CMMs do not like "seeing" A/C units or heaters.
Not sure of AS but TS-16949 does not impose a requirement of extremely tight temp control or any fixed temp on your gauge lab and I have seen many "certified" places that are...... shall we say,... not so good yet still have the plaque on the wall.

If the floor is very far off from the lab temp sink time becomes a huge problem.
One does not want to wait 24 hours to measure a part you have setup on a machine and in the real world you will just measure it and move on.

Think a lot about "real" use of your new measuring systems and your fancy room. Do not make it an Albatross.
User friendly, KISS, an aid to production, not a bottleneck.
Please, please do not make your gage room a place many hate to deal with but instead something your production system loves as a support operation.
People tend to go off the deep end with this to impress customers and it ends up a non-productive, elitists mess.
Yes you have to do it right and that means being fussy but it exists for one reason and one reason only...... too support making stuff that ships out the door.

On top of this you are going to have QC people to go with your room and cert.
That can be a whole nother interesting deal to ride herd on. They tend to be difficult.
Bob
 
Most customers in the automotive world tell you exactly what part numbers you shall use and those will not be used by any other automotive company you do work for. This is to keep you from marking the same number or series of numbers on competitors parts so they have traceability back to you as the supplier.

These weren't auto parts, but still, that seems asinine, BUT I could see Ford/Chevy all wanting to be 'unique' so there isn't a conflict. In your example, what if you quote a job for a non-auto job and they have a part number of 123dg and you have an auto part 123hj78... do you tell the new customer too bad? or no-quote them because you can't mark their part number?!? :dopeslap: (this actually was the scenario I was referring to, a no-quote or "we can't" :confused:

I come from a job shop environment (mostly) so that whole scenario sounds crazy to me. We often had very similar part numbers for a whole number of different customers, you just had to check that part #xxx was for xxx customer.
 
Having a redundant system is also a thought. Down time due to failure or maintenance could cause a major backup. One place we deal with in Boston requires redundancy on everything. They Have 2N UPS, cooling and generator backup with 30MW of backup power generation on-site. The place is also on at least 2 electric grids, maybe 3, I forget. They run the place like it is a submarine, continuous drills for the maintenance staff in simulated failures etc. Not that you need anything like that but redundant units to cool the space might be worth looking at or at least setting it up so a future second unit could be added. Lead Lag Failover would be my choice. There is nothing like your HVAC contractor telling you the compressor you need now is at least 2 weeks out.

JR
 
Not to highjack thread, but how much would it cost a small shop to prove they do good work and get that fancy certification? Everyone I have talked to says avoid it unless you have to as you have to hire extra personel just to handle all the unnecessary paperwork? One of my customers regrets doing it, but he had to do it to appease his aerospace customer.

Labor (Price that how you want ~150 hrs / year doing iso work) Far more labor hours per year using the system, but those things benefit the shop also, so i am not sure i would say they are a "ISO COST" + 1-2k / year for auditing.

We did not hire anyone extra full time, and have spent more money than i want to on systems that seem "required" by ISO but really are systems that are required by the customers and industry we work in.

As we have grown we have had to spend about 2k/year to get some external auditors come and audit our system.
 
What kind of practices do shops have with regard to company owned measuring equipment, calibration, and storage?

We are marching down the path of AS9100 certification and we are seeing a need to get a system in place that allows us to do inspection of parts with calibrated measurement tools that are sequestered in a climate controlled area.

None of the parts we will be measuring are large (i.e. typically smaller than 12 inches in any dimension) but from time to time, we will need to measure hole locations that might be up to 72 inches from a datum . . . and at some point we will need to purchase a CMM to do this.

We could build a room with a roll up garage door or something like that with a dedicated HVAC system or ???

Anyone who has been down the AS9100 track have any guidance for us?

Probably some exist but I don't know of any European company that is certified and allows personal measuring equipment to be used on the premises. Of course we have idiots over here too but employees that steal, abuse and misuse company property are rare.

Maybe a fact finding mission to Europe could be combined with a vacation?
 








 
Back
Top