Creating a reference for my apprentice

Boris · Mar 24, 2012

Evening all

Heres a question for all the shop owners/employers

What sort of thing do you look for and what sort of details do you look for in a reference.

I ask this since my apprentice is coming up on 4 yrs worked in metal bashing and thinks he could do better elsewhere (unless the boss offers him some more $$$) and he wants/needs something written down about his experience and capabilities
But he's not done an official apprenticeship program , only what I've worked out to train him in (tool setting, fixture making, programming etc)
I know he could put down "4 yrs operating CNCs" since thats the job hes paid for, but he's capable of a lot more.

Boris

<<will miss him greatly..... if he goes, then I'll have to do some actual work! :bawling:

77ironhead · Mar 24, 2012

I'd say, if you're his 'supervisor', and have a positive opinion of him: you could probably write a letter of reference for him, and briefly list the things you trained him in and any opinions on the type of worker he is.

AndyF · Mar 24, 2012

I do not provide a written letter that the employee can keep in their file. Instead, if they are good, I tell them that I will be available for a phone or email conversation to any prospective employer. When someone calls, I try to give as honest and positive a recommendation as possible letting the caller know both the basics - how long they worked here and details about the skills they had or developed, but in general, I let the caller ask questions regarding the person and try to answer them as honestly as possible.

For someone who wasn't good, all that I will do is confirm dates of employment. I'll never say anything disparaging of a former employee - not answering questions is usually sufficient for all but the most obtuse callers to understand that in my eyes the person wasn't very good.

When I worked for a big company, corporate policy was to refer the caller to HR which would then confirm dates of employment.

As far as what I look for in a reference, I don't put much stock in a written letter of reference. I prefer being able to talk to the reference. Most of the people I hire come from a college where I know several instructors and I can check with the instructor about the person's skills or they are acquainted with people who already work here and I can check with the person who I work with whether they are any good.

Dave D · Mar 24, 2012

I agree with 77ironhead, write the reference letter including all the things that he is capable of. The letter of reference is often what gets the interview with larger employers and then they can call you or not.

The best way that I've found of doing this is to get them to write the reference letter but tell them that you may "change a few things" and put it in my own words. Most people are unbelievably honest and very modest. If I have to do anything it is to adjust what they state they are capable of. Its a win-win situation this way.

Dave

77ironhead · Mar 24, 2012

AndyF said:
I do not provide a written letter that the employee can keep in their file. Instead, if they are good, I tell them that I will be available for a phone or email conversation to any prospective employer. When someone calls, I try to give as honest and positive a recommendation as possible letting the caller know both the basics - how long they worked here and details about the skills they had or developed, but in general, I let the caller ask questions regarding the person and try to answer them as honestly as possible.

The problem with that, as time passes: will you be there (for whatever reason) say....10 or 15 years from now?
When I first came home from the Navy in 1990, I worked 2 years in a plating shop, and in that time, was befriended by the maintenance guy. He wanted to get out of maintenance and start a different company, so phased his contract maintenance work over to me, and got my foot in the door with the guy who owned the factory building, as well as the contracts with the 7 companies renting space there. When I left, I neglected to get letters of reference from the building owner (or other owners), and he's since passed, and several of the companies are now out of business (some of them within 3 or 4 years of my leaving). In the same span of years, I've moved out of state, and have a tough time showing perspective employers proof of my skills or experience considering I don't have the luxury of knowing a lot of people in a new environment. I actually had a boss call me a liar and throw my resume in the trash in front of me at one point.....letters of reference would have saved me a lot of headaches.

bryan_machine · Mar 24, 2012

Sadly AndyF has it right - first, does your org have HR policies about this? What does UK law say?

Second, in the US "references" often means "people who have agreed you contact them about me" - because anybody can write a letter extolling their own virtues and then sign it Mr. Slammy. Much harder to fake the answering of a phone call (though that has been done...)

RedBaron · Mar 24, 2012

What I'd consider is writing a reference detailing (in short, concise paragraphs) A: your recommendation regarding the employee's character, B: the current position held and job responsibilities of employee, and C: what the employee is capable of regarding his strengths (e.g., fast learner, smart, creative, etc.)

Include in letter of recommendation your name and contact info, the date, and your current position as relative to the employee (e.g., immediate supervisor, whatever) Include tele number, email, and social site URL (Facebook, Linkedin, etc.) if applicable.

I think his request for a letter of rec is both reasonable and practical, as people move on and are hard to locate after a while.

G

Dave D · Mar 24, 2012

Lots of companies have HR people who want to see the resume, letter of reference and phone references. If you search past posts on applying for jobs lots of posts on people going through a pile of resumes/letters of reference and quickly sorting through them to find the most "professional" looking ones, chucking the ones with spelling errors. Then going through the next steps if the application looks promising.

Lots of companies are smaller and don't really care that much about resumes etc. but want to know what the worker can/can't do by talking to someone directly.

If the person is a good employee, why wouldn't you do both so you don't limit his job opportunities? The only advantage of just being a phone reference is that it may mean that you have to do very little. Maybe the key issue is that you still maintain some control once the person leaves your company.

Dave

AndyF · Mar 24, 2012

77ironhead said:
The problem with that, as time passes: will you be there (for whatever reason) say....10 or 15 years from now?

Probably not, and honestly I wouldn't expect anyone to ask after that much time has passed. People can change a lot and someone who was great when they worked for me could be totally different 10 years down the line. As an employer I would be very uncomfortable with an applicant whose references were very old unless there were significant extenuating circumstances.

From personal experience I hired someone a few years ago with very good, but older references and had to let him go after his first week. He may have been good when the references were written, but by the time he came to me, drinking was the priority in his life and he couldn't do the job any more.

Insert · Mar 24, 2012

Boris said:
Evening all
<<will miss him greatly..... if he goes, then I'll have to do some actual work!

Write that on the reference paper or tell the person who calls, that right there pretty much sums everything up, and shows how good and happy you were with him.

Limy Sami · Mar 25, 2012

References to his, attitude, apptitude, timekeeping, willingness to work etc etc etc if apllicable?? would carry weight with me.

IME there are plenty of guys around who've done , this that and the other but won't work.

Richard King · Mar 25, 2012

Reference

I have written several letters like this in the past.

To whom it may concern.

John Smith is a wonderful employee and I will miss his workmanship, ability to get to work on time and cheerful smiles in my shop. I will hate to see him leave, but understand he needs to move up in his career. I would love to speak to you about him, so give me a call or email.
He will always have a job waiting for him when he moves back.

Best Regards,
Richard King
King Way Scraping Consultants
etc...

Something like that works everytime..and I have talked to many people....
what sucks if you have a lousy employee and he leaves and gives you as a reference....legally you can get your butt in a world of hurt if your candid about him...I always say...I would never hire him if he re-apllies...lol

Boris · Mar 26, 2012

Well I've decided that if asked anything by a future employer I'll put down something along the lines of

The reference is only valid for 12 months after he left the company where I attend/skive/hide in the toilets away from the cack handed operators
And that he did his work in a consistant and diligent fashion, while being guided in learning about the various aspects of CNC machining

Boris

And If I dont want him to leave, I'll use the kiss of death reference "Works well only when closely supervised"

doug8cat · Apr 7, 2012

I like the idea of having a person write ther own reference letter with boss / super. doing the final edit. I ahve written ref. leters for a few a people over the years and use the following method. I sit down and ask the employee what he / she thinks I shoould say strong points etc., I then ask for 1 or 2 negative, or lets say skills they would like to improve. Reason being that I think a letter that contains only "good" things about a person looks weird, I consider myself a good worker but I do have weak areas. A prospective employer I believe would put more creedence in letter shed light on all aspects of a person. Saying somthing like he is an awsome worker once you get him motivated. I dunno I just think saying somthing about all aspects will put more of a positive spin on the letter. But word it carefully cause legally your not allowed to smack down a person either in writing or conversations. In most cases I let the worker read the letter when I am done and sign off on a copy which I keep in my files, this document gives legal recourse if Bill comes back after 6 monthes and accuses you of sabotaging his employment prospects with a letter he okayed.

IronReb · Apr 7, 2012

Boris,you are missing out on a free lunch every Friday from this guy.All you need is two copies,one positive and one negative.
The one you send is based on how good your free lunch is.And also,don't be afraid to point at a jar on your tool box that needs to be kept full of your favorite candy

AccessDbGuy · Apr 8, 2012

Way back when I was C.O. of a military company I had a young officer that competed in ballroom dance. And he was very proud of a Dance Silver Medal he won. My policy was to let officers and NCOs/PettyOfficers give me a brag sheet of what they think they have accomplished that the individual wanted me to consider. With the understanding that I could accept or not their brags.

This young officer wanted me to enter something in his fitness report about that medal. In fact he sort of insisted on it. Well being in the military was not a good fit for him so I wrote something like..."Won a Dance Silver Medal in competition which may do him well in his future civilian endevors."

The last portion of that sentence told future selection boards a lot. He was not augmented and left the service not too long after. Which was my intent.

So be careful not only what you write, but how you word it. You can accomplish a lot with the correct wording without getting yourself in legal crapola..

Stan dB

CMT John · Apr 8, 2012

I've always been fond of the line...

"You should consider yourself very lucky if you can get Joe to work for you".

doug8cat · Apr 14, 2012

I really put very little creedence in reference letters aside from the fact that you can determine if they really worked there and for how long. Remeber hearing about a person second hand drom someone you probably don't know. The person writing the letter may a haneous machinist or just writing a good ref to get that stinking guy another job and off my floor "this way I don't have to fire him" just dump the problem in someone else's lap.
Ref are nice and helpful but it is only a small part of person. Great for weeding out the truly dispicable and the like. But nothing subs for a face to face, and here mic this block what do get ?, add 1/32 and 1/4 inch, whats the difference between - and + rake and so forth.

I have hired a number of people over the years and aside from a few slam dunks it is crap shoot. The only thing a ref letter did was either get them in the door or the waste bin. Of course I was working in a field were I knew most of the people who where writing their refs so that right there gave a hand up.

aerodark · Apr 14, 2012

CMT John said:
I've always been fond of the line...

"You should consider yourself very lucky if you can get Joe to work for you".

I chuckled when I read that quote. Maybe Joe is a lazy SOB who won't work for anyone, anytime! :scratchchin:

aerodark · Apr 14, 2012

Penny Dropped?

I bow to your superior judgment and proliferation of the English language.

Hard to acknowledge your blather when you are on my ignorant list.

Creating a reference for my apprentice

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