Customer Approved Design Failed - Fault?

We made some table frames for a customer. It was the customers design. We just did the metal base, they did the wood top, and sold it to their client. It went into a high traffic/use scenario. I'm just a general fab shop, though we specialize in bases and display stands, etc. My customer, long time customer, good relationship, gave me the design, we made a prototype, they made a couple small changes and approved it, then we made about 40 of these bases. I just heard back that in a 5 month time frame, 12 of the bases have failed, all at the same point. The consistency and the quantity of the failure say design flaw, or consistent abuse to me. My customer is trying to put 100% of the blame on me, which I don't necessarily mind. They're not angry about it, they just want me to pay all that's required to fix the problem, which is going to be considerably more than I charged them to make the bases, since they want all 40 bases to be reinforced, and it has to be done by a union shop in the middle of the night.

I had a conversation with my customer who flat out told me this was my fault, not theirs, and they wanted me to cover all the expenses, to which I politely said you approved the prototype, we made them to spec according to the prototype, and this seems more like a design flaw. Though I also said I'm not entirely pushing off responsibility of this, and am willing to work with them, and he sort of agreed. At this point, I'm being put as the contact for the end user trying to work out the details for reconciliation and I'm hoping I can convince them to let a non-union shop make the repairs, and take the bases off site for repair instead of in their facility in the middle of the night.

Personally, I don't want to pay more to have this fixed then I charged them for the bases, and even though I feel like I'm not entirely at fault, I obviously want to keep them happy so they keep giving me business. From the initial estimates I've received, the repairs could end up being close to $15,000 MORE than I charged them for the bases, which seems outrageous to me. I'm estimating the repairs to be no more than 30 man hours tops.

I guess I'm looking for advice. Long time business owners, should I just take it in the rear to make them happy? Try to work out a middle ground? Or just tell them I'll cover UP TO the cost I charged them? There's been one or two other problems in the past, but it's always been less than $100 incidents. This is the first big one.

I think the obvious response is going to be: Make new bases already reinforced. Issue here is the final customer is requiring union installers, which charged $14K just to install the bases and tops on the initial order, so that's about the same boat I'm in as having them repaired. Plus I'm backed up enough as is...

Is this a case of a weld failure at the stressed area?

Based on the information you've given:

I'm going to say, since it was THEIR design, you are 100% NOT AT FAULT.
And I think that will hold up in court.
It sounds like you don't want to piss them off and loose them as a customer,
but "to the tune" of $15k out of your pocket, you may want to re-think that.
Especially since it sounds like they're not having any problem becoming sleezy
and pointing at YOU for THEIR mistake.

Also: Can you post a few pics of the design and failure for us here to speculate
as to "design flaw" or "poor execution"?

Is the end customer so far from you that it is not economical to have the bases returned to you for modification?

1. What does the drawing say ? (there were drawings ? properly revised to reflect "as built", and customer did sign off on ?)
2. Time to get a couple hours with a failure engineer. He/she will want to see proper drawings, and of course
several pictures of failed area.

If they are willing to screw you now they'll do it again. I'd make them bite the bullet you just did your job it's their poor engineering that's at fault or so it would seem based on this info.

See what your errors and omissions insurance guy says. It will probably be: did you build it they way they designed it? This can help keep your customer relationship good, as you can pin it on the insurance guys/lawyers.

Practical, cooperative solution: Rent a generator and a box truck and gather gear necessary to set up a mobile shop to do the narrow-scope repairs. Go to customer site, have "union guys" bring you tables, a few at a time, for re-work, and have them return them inside. If you get pushback from neighbors, take out a film permit, get a couple lights and a camera, and shoot it as a reality show pilot episode. You cover the shop, generator, and materials. Customer covers 'union guys', and a mandatory professional engineer design approval and stamp before (of the entire thing, including tabletop weight and intended use) anything happens. (Which should now be step one in your fab process.)

I'm pretty sure your insurance company won't cover re-work by others, and your terms and conditions should limit that as well.

Chip

I think there's a good chance you'll lose this customer anyway, as they'll be leery of a repeat performance even if they're at fault.

To me, the issue is likelihood and expense of being sued. From the way you describe the process, if they approved your manufacture of their designs, and you made all production versions of the frame the same way as the prototypes, then it's entirely their fault if they've failed in use. They didn't design it correctly, they didn't test it enough. You should not have to pay for repairs, or for any ancillary expenses (like union rates) you didn't contract for.

But if you think they'll sue you, the cost of litigation and time loss may make it more palatable to take on repairs. It's a very tough call, and I'm sorry you're in this situation. Just be aware that if they walk all over you now, they'll do it again. No "good" customer who puts you in this situation is worth it.

I attached a picture of the failure. The tubing broke and tore, not the welds. We've done bases very similar to this one, hundreds all made the same way, and have never had a problem like this. And it's the same guy who makes these bases every time they're ordered, so it's not like these were made differently. I don't think heavy use was the issue, I think it was abuse. They're in a train station, so I think the crew is tossing the bases around, and the impact is causing the tables to break. But I could be wrong...

Milland said:

I think there's a good chance you'll lose this customer anyway, as they'll be leery of a repeat performance even if they're at fault.

To me, the issue is likelihood and expense of being sued. From the way you describe the process, if they approved your manufacture of their designs, and you made all production versions of the frame the same way as the prototypes, then it's entirely their fault if they've failed in use. They didn't design it correctly, they didn't test it enough. You should not have to pay for repairs, or for any ancillary expenses (like union rates) you didn't contract for.

But if you think they'll sue you, the cost of litigation and time loss may make it more palatable to take on repairs. It's a very tough call, and I'm sorry you're in this situation. Just be aware that if they walk all over you now, they'll do it again. No "good" customer who puts you in this situation is worth it.

Click to expand...

It does sound like they are trying to walk all over me, but there was a situation a while back in which a base broke. I had told the customer it was a bad design, but they wanted to go with it anyway. All the weight of the top was put directly on a mitered joint weld on 14ga tubing. Against better judgement, I went ahead and made it for them. Well the table broke while it was in use at a wedding, with lots of fine china and all the coffee pots on the table. HUGE mess. Table came down on top of one of the workers legs, sent him to the ER. That customer demanded all expenses be paid for including the hospital bills, and replacement of all dishes. My customer informed me of the incident, but did not ask for a cent to cover the cost.

They really are a good customer. And most of the time they view incidents as an opportunity to learn and adapt their products, including this one. They've already implemented the reinforcement into the standard drawing for the product. I want to keep them happy, but........

Is this a customer you can afford to lose?

Looking at that picture it's no surprise it failed, even if the customer had approved the design I wouldn't have built those bases. I think your out of luck on this one. I won't work on anything I don't think will either work, or I think will fail. I do stress analysis on parts I design and sell, and if a customer can't do the same I'm not going to touch it.

Did a weld fail, or did the material fail?

View attachment 194894[/QUOTE]

What kind of moron designed that expecting it to survive anything but light use! Is the base just some thin wall tube? You should make a deal with your customer, you'll fix the tables if they fire the guy that designed them.

Milland said:

I think there's a good chance you'll lose this customer anyway, as they'll be leery of a repeat performance even if they're at fault.

To me, the issue is likelihood and expense of being sued. From the way you describe the process, if they approved your manufacture of their designs, and you made all production versions of the frame the same way as the prototypes, then it's entirely their fault if they've failed in use.

Click to expand...

Owwww! These types of situations make my head hurt. I agree you'll likely lose the customer, unless you roll over and play dead.

A long time ago, I took the position that with customer supplied art (for printing on 3-d objects) we just print what they sent. Big mistake. Inevitably something wouldn't line up, the customer would be pissed, we'd say, "well, you should have done this or that, and the customer would say, "Why didn't you tell us? That's why we came to you."

It was a fair comment, and I eventually learned to just build in a charge for a couple hours of massaging the art. Using our experience, the jobs worked and the customer was happy.

I can see this scenario during the design phase... The customer comes with a drawing and says, "Will this work." You said, "Sure, always has before." So the customer signs off on the drawing.... Now, you feel he designed it, so failure is his responsibility. He feels he asked for your judgement, which turned out to be wrong, so it's your responsibility.

Best solution with a chance of saving the relationship is to have the customer send them back, at his expense. Once they are in your shop, you can repair them with your staff, which has got to be cheaper than using the on-site union labor.

Good luck.

Dennis

Is the base made of rectangular tubing? Solid stock would not fail that way, and would not have cost hugely more even if stainless. It seems to me that as a table in a public area, the design is inherently flawed as the tables will overturn (shorter leg width than table width) unless it's bolted down.

What is the junction of the legs like? Is it one long length and two short? Butt welds? Wall thickness? Are you close enough to the installation to go inspect these yourself?

Are there any signs of impact scratches or dents on the ends oft the legs? That would go along with your idea that these are being thrown around.

I won't suggest who's responsible for the fix but had it been my shop and their plans, I would have refused to build the tables. I think even to the untrained eye that is a absolutely horrible design and failure would have been fully expected at that very joint. Hope it all works out for you.

Stuart

There is likely an incentive to make these things as lightweight as possible, but having done one that way, it should have been destructively tested to see what it could actually carry. 50:50 responsibility is what I'd say was fair.

Econdron said:

View attachment 194894

Click to expand...

You had a couple of big dudes both sit on the same side of the table at the same time (trust me, if it's a union shop, there's fat guys sitting down on every horizontal surface.)

That poor table never stood a chance. Have someone work you up a FEA report showing the maximum allowable load on the edge of that tabletop (which they'll need dimensions for as well - I know you didn't do that part.)

Which brings me to an important point: your customer installed the table tops, and I'm assuming there is judicious overhang - you had zero control or input on that design decision, and it is absolutely critical to this failure. How exactly is your customer saying it's your fault? If they had asked you, I'm sure you would have told them not to put a tabletop of that size on the frame, because it would obviously cause this type of failure under what would otherwise be a reasonable load. (There's your escape clause language right there, by the way.)

Not your fault at all - up to you how much money you want to eat trying to keep this customer.

I would think it would be pretty easy to have a 3rd party PE determine if it was a design flaw or defect in craftsmanship.

It certainly looks like a poor design. It's more difficult to claim it was a bad design with any level of "fabrication" other than machining.

Its tough to get nasty with a customer but they are essentially throwing you under the bus. Tell them if they want you to help pay for them you will not pay for a union shop. That's insult to injury.

Yes, 1x3 x 14ga steel rectangular tubing for everything, including the uprights. One long piece with two shorter pieces butt welded on for the base. It's a simple, very economical option that they started offering. Most of the time, a 2' or 3' max round or square top goes on these, but this on apparently had a 4' top on there, which puts a huge amount of leverage on the base. They don't tell me what goes on it, just what size they want the base to be. I have one of these bases here in my shop on display, with a 2' square top on it. It's rock solid. It's a tough situation, but I'm really not that worried about it. This customer does about $120K/Year, so they're a pretty good sized customer for me. I have a good friend who has a union sheet metal shop, so worst case scenario I pay him to fly out there and do the repair. I'm in Illinois, these bases went to New York.

This is actually the company that got me started in the first place. I used to be very very heavily dependent on them, but not so much now. I mean if I lost them, I would have to let 1-2 guys go, but I wouldn't go out of business because of it either. This company is pretty heavily dependent on metal bases, so it wouldn't be that easy for them to just dump me and find a new shop. They definitely could, but it would be a little bit of a transition.

Unless you were involved in the full design and/or approved of what appears an oversize table top how can you be at fault? If the tubing is breaking right at the weld joint I would say maybe you bare some responsibility, short of that it's looks like a design issue to me.

Maybe cut the customer a deal on repairs but do not sign anything or verbally take responsibility for the problem, that table looks like a law suit in the making.