Dealing with people who have _no_ mechanical aptitude - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    You must have been like Bam-Bam on the Flintstones, I wouldn't think a 3 year old would have the strength to crank a jack.
    It took about a half hour, and it wasn't easy.

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    I was a printer by trade. I have seen printers that worked fir 30 years and struggled with the machine every day. I have seen engineers that couldn't hold a wrench yet we're writing production procedures. These are expensive for a company. They continue to work against each other.
    I looked for the pressman that always had his press clicking along and didn't fight it. I asked to work with him. The pressman that trained me was always busy smoking a joint out on the dock.
    When I became the pressman and trainer I told the trainee I'm going to show you how I do it and expect you to do it that way. Then said after your on your own you may see a better way and can do it your way.
    Our brains are all wired different. Some people can look right at a problem and never see the solution. Hand them a broom
    I moved to Salt Lake City in the early 80s to help in the startup of a check printing company. The young men I was training were just returning from their year mission. Most had no mechanical experience and were a bit spoiled in attitude. I had one tell me he was here to run a printing press when I asked him to sweep. I gave him every cleanup job I could find. He turned out to be a pretty good pressman and was training new guys when I left.
    Machines are dangerous. Less now than years ago. Leaving someone on a machine that has no mechanical aptitude is wrong but in this new world were in the company gets sued for picking on someone. I had to cut some shafts on a printing press with a torch to get a guys arm untangled. It ain't pretty when you see the forearm muscle pushed up past his elbow. Management was warned by others that he was dangerous. You have to have a certain amount of fear and a lot of respect for machinery. Some never get it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    WTH - when I was teaching myself to make explosives, any damage was "local". Ruint a garbidge can once is all.
    This pic came to mind.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails garylarson-godasachild.jpg  

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  5. #44
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    OK, Digger has boldly opened the topic to the next level - this is long - I have skipped the intro . . .

    I think that the key idea here is that people today suffer from delayed onset of adulthood or prolonged adolescence and a result of this is that people stuck in this perpetual dependent state exist more as consumers than producers, yet they don't even realize that this prevents them from being able to learn skills or even develop the fortitude to work hard for anything.

    Evening Conversation with Senator Ben Sasse and James K.A. Smith - YouTube

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    I remember playing with explosives when I was a kid. Now I just put 34 degrees of timing in a hemi engine with a 1471 blower at 10,000 rpm and get the same results.

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  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    I think that the key idea here is that people today suffer from delayed onset of adulthood or prolonged adolescence and a result of this is that people stuck in this perpetual dependent state exist more as consumers than producers, yet they don't even realize that this prevents them from being able to learn skills or even develop the fortitude to work hard for anything.
    I generally like all of your posts. But, I'm quite certain that some primitive man chiseled this exact statement on a cave wall somewhere in the fertile crescent a few hundred thousand years ago.

    You know, "kids these days".

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  10. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonytn36 View Post
    ...I've had the pleasure (pain) of dealing with one or two of those the past week or so. I'm still not sure how I've kept from choking them...but somehow I have managed.

    How do you folks deal with this? I'm not the supervisor, I'm engineering. All I can do is report my personal observations to management. But this incompetence is driving me nuts.
    How company owners deal with this is simple, provided they are (like myself) closely connected to the shop floor and aware of operations: GET RID of destructive idiots before they destroy the capital equipment and, as a result, the livelihoods of their co-workers. Better yet, watch for and weed out idiots. I use the term "idiots" in the clinical sense inasmuch as they would obviously score low on the mechanical-aptitude segments of IQ tests such as the Army uses (e.g., the recognize-the-unfolded-pattern test). I justify this on the basis of my responsibility to the proven employees; that idiots represent a broad threat to the enterprise and must be ruthlessly excluded.

    If you are not in a position to do anything other than clean up after their disasters, just decide whether your pay is worth it.

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  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    I generally like all of your posts. But, I'm quite certain that some primitive man chiseled this exact statement on a cave wall somewhere in the fertile crescent a few hundred thousand years ago.

    You know, "kids these days".
    watch the video . . . and I quote "This is not an old man screaming 'Get off my lawn!'"

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    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    OK, Digger has boldly opened the topic to the next level - this is long - I have skipped the intro . . .

    I think that the key idea here is that people today suffer from delayed onset of adulthood or prolonged adolescence and a result of this is that people stuck in this perpetual dependent state exist more as consumers than producers, yet they don't even realize that this prevents them from being able to learn skills or even develop the fortitude to work hard for anything.

    Evening Conversation with Senator Ben Sasse and James K.A. Smith - YouTube
    They never "Get serious".

    Back when I was learning to fly (strictly VFR in a Cub on a short grass strip)
    The magazines were all filled with complaints of "too many people watching
    the instruments and not looking out the window"

    I didn't have that problem, there were no instruments.....

    And when you solo, after about 20 seconds, you get that chill that your all alone,
    and you've got to get this thing back down, in one piece, with your
    butt in it.

    There's no "Back button".

    And so the slogan developed "When all else fails, fly the damn plane".

    I use it sometimes to drive home a point of : stop texting, stop playing
    on your phone, concentrate on solving the problem, Google does NOT have all
    the answers.

    And whatever you come up with, better work, work right, and you better
    have something else as a backup plan, sometimes 2-3 contingency plans.

    Like we see new posters come on here, looking to have the answer in 10 seconds,
    and to be completely customized to their needs.

    And don't get me started on their "Variable integrity".....

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    IMO there were 2 options for Tony's situation,

    1 - A hollow point in the back of the head. ..........bit frowned upon these days - even if one considers it an act of kindness.

    2 - Walk away. ..........okay if that's what you want to, or worse still can do.

    But in the modern world, online technology has provided a 3rd (which IMHO may be the perfect answer)

    3 - Set them up with a YouTube Channel - where they can tell the world how great they are. .......they'll make a mint, and leave us who can to get on with the job.

  16. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    I generally like all of your posts. But, I'm quite certain that some primitive man chiseled this exact statement on a cave wall somewhere in the fertile crescent a few hundred thousand years ago.

    You know, "kids these days".
    I always wondered if it was a demographic issue or being born into a white collar vs blue collar family issue. I graduated High School in the 70's all of my male friends from a mix of back grounds had these rules laid down. These are male rules, females had it easier. If you want a car at 16, you will pay for the purchase, maintenance, insurance and gas by getting a job. Best case scenario the parents would subsidize up to 50% of the original purchase. No kid would think of taking his car to a mechanic it was too expensive, if he didn't have the means to fix it himself he would find a friend who could. He would assist anyway possible and provide weed, alcohol, and or junk food as barter for labor.

    At 18 the basic rule was the free ride is over, there is the door don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out. Exceptions to the rule a kid who went to a local college could remain at home. A token amount for room and board was required that was around what half a small apartment would cost a month paid by getting a part time job. If a kid wasn't going to college if lucky he could stay at home at most until he was 21. This was only if the kid had a steady job and showed he was saving money toward a major approved expense like down payment on a house, paying of a car or saving for a college fund. Even in this case kid pays room and board plus does a lot of household chores.

    I would have to look long and hard to find a kid living by these rules today. I do know kids that still live at home at 25 and do not pay room and board, go to college, or even do chores.

    As far as the comments of "kids are lazy these days" that can be found made from people 100+ years ago, it is because the standards have changed, and life is easier. It isn't because a 2017 kid on average is just as hardworking and ambitious as a kid from 1917. I was considered very ambitious and hardworking when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's. By 1930's standards I would have been considered average as things evolve life becomes physically easier. That phenomena has kind of hit it's wall. There aren't very many physical tasks done now that were considerably harder when I was a kid 40 years ago, but if you go back 40 years from when I was a kid things were a lot harder.

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    Even our laws have changed to make it harder for kids to work today. I have to have a minor work permit to hire anyone under the age of 18 and they cannot use a power tool or get on a ladder. Not even a hand drill. They wind up doing a mix of shop clean up, wiring up of control systems, and even landscaping to keep them busy for the summer.

    At 15, I worked summers and after school in a hydraulic shop. Diversified Industries on 88 South Hudson in Seattle. I skived hydraulic hoses and installed reusable or crimp on fittings, made grease whips by the 1000's using a hydraulic crimper ALL_DAY_LONG (I am convinced that this is what got me into automation). Drove a forklift and loaded / unloaded trucks, kept the shop clean, pulled fittings orders and shipped them out UPS, there was very little I wasn't trained to do by age 16. Bought my first brand new car at age 18 . . . and moved out from home shortly thereafter. It is very different today for kids as they don't get the same opportunity to learn things - our culture has changed all that and most parents today wouldn't want their kids to work in a shop or do anything that might endanger them.

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    It starts at a young age.

    This latest snow storm we got over 5', and the piles at the
    ends of driveways was maybe 7' high.

    Not a single snow fort in any neighborhood I drove thru.

    Use to be you had to be extra careful driving, watching for kids sliding down the hills, and accidentally sliding into the street.

    Now the Teen drivers are out in droves, texting and not caring at all.

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  20. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post

    Something I heard a pistol instructor say one time - The students that struggle the most, are the one's that need help the most. Meaning the one's that frustrate you the most, are most in need of your help. Just try to remember that, and stay positive.
    That is completely different situation. You pay employees, the students pay you.

    CarlBoyd

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlBoyd View Post
    That is completely different situation. You pay employees, the students pay you.

    CarlBoyd
    Not THAT different. Productive employees DO (help) "pay you", unproductive ones, not so much.

    Promising ones are worth investing time in to develop and retain. Over time, they'll have a more beneficial effect and a rather higher dollar-value-add count than the revolving-door of "tuition fees" will.

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  23. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlBoyd View Post
    That is completely different situation. You pay employees, the students pay you.

    CarlBoyd
    It depends on how much you pay them. An electrician doing residential work has 4 wires to deal with and makes around $40 an hour. Because of global competition a machinist makes a lot less. There seem to be a lot of programs where prisoners are trained to be machinists. How will this affect the trade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    Even our laws have changed to make it harder for kids to work today. I have to have a minor work permit to hire anyone under the age of 18 and they cannot use a power tool or get on a ladder. Not even a hand drill. They wind up doing a mix of shop clean up, wiring up of control systems, and even landscaping to keep them busy for the summer.

    At 15, I worked summers and after school in a hydraulic shop. Diversified Industries on 88 South Hudson in Seattle. I skived hydraulic hoses and installed reusable or crimp on fittings, made grease whips by the 1000's using a hydraulic crimper ALL_DAY_LONG (I am convinced that this is what got me into automation). Drove a forklift and loaded / unloaded trucks, kept the shop clean, pulled fittings orders and shipped them out UPS, there was very little I wasn't trained to do by age 16. Bought my first brand new car at age 18 . . . and moved out from home shortly thereafter. It is very different today for kids as they don't get the same opportunity to learn things - our culture has changed all that and most parents today wouldn't want their kids to work in a shop or do anything that might endanger them.
    Not sure of your age Motion Guru, but when I got my first manufacturing after school job in 1977 at the age of 16 in Southern California I lied about my age to get it, you had to be 18 to work where I applied in a sheet metal shop that made range hoods. I even showed the office girl my driver's license and SS card when filling out my IRS forms, she just looked at my address and wrote it down. That was back in the day where if you looked old enough they did not question your age. My full mustache I grew at 15 opened a lot of doors for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    Even our laws have changed to make it harder for kids to work today. I have to have a minor work permit to hire anyone under the age of 18 and they cannot use a power tool or get on a ladder.
    Work permits were required when I wanted to get a job at 15. That was 17 years ago. The permit was issued by my school. They didn't want you working if you were already failing school.

    I've never heard this nonsense about power tools. When I was 16 I spent 40 hours a week on a JD lawn mower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Work permits were required when I wanted to get a job at 15. That was 17 years ago. The permit was issued by my school. They didn't want you working if you were already failing school.

    I've never heard this nonsense about power tools. When I was 16 I spent 40 hours a week on a JD lawn mower.
    Varies by State. And how much risk an employer is willing to take.

    It was Pennsylvania Labour Law as of 1959 or so. One could be on powered machinery or machine tools only if for formal training and under direct supervision. I had to wait 'til 16 before I could run a lathe, mill, shaper, surface grinder, even a buffer or a drillpress or tiny 3-D engraver unsupervised. Already had the training, 13 thru 15.

    Age 15, even limited to hand tools or an assembly line, the 88 cents an hour was an "adult" wage I was delighted to earn AS an "adult" in a still-respected craft vs pushing snow, delivering newspapers, or mowing grass.

    It was suburban Pittsburgh, "Iron City", after all.

    Our "Promise Land" dreams still WERE "made of steel", so we had a different world-view back in that era.

    Kids whose Dad's were US Steel or Mesta Machine, Crucible, some furnace or ladle maker, white-collar executives were expected to get hands dirty, take risk of injury - or worse, death - and even carry a Steelworkers Union card for a few years to learn, "ground up" and better understand the workforce they might one day manage.

    Their Dad's and Grand dads had done it that way, and still recognized the value in it.

    Another thing... one couldn't get a job with "Dad's company". One of his buddies would find a job for you. Your Dad would hire HIS son, etc.

    Made life easier on the shop floor when the Big Boss was NOT a newbie kid's own Dad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    I always wondered if it was a demographic issue or being born into a white collar vs blue collar family issue.
    You described how I grew up. I bought my first vehicle, a 1989 F-150 with a straight six and a manual trans. Fixed it myself. Helped friends fix theirs. Went to a local college and lived at home rent free until age 20. Then I was on my own.

    However, there were plenty of kids who had their cars given to them. Some were brand new. They just were not in my social circle.


    I'm not so sure about the last part though. My great grand parent and even my grand parents never, ever, worked on a Sunday. They went to church or rested. There were places where it was illegal to mow the grass or wash the car on Sunday. I work on Sunday all the time. So do my parents. It's just another day.


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