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  1. #161
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    I feel for the OP and think there is a very real problem with finding workers who aren't entitled brats these days. At the same time though, I think it is very important to have crystal clear expectations laid out for employees from the start.

    At one company that I worked for we never knew if we were getting the day off on holidays (paid or unpaid) until the afternoon before. Even when we would ask weeks and days leading up to the holiday they wouldn't tell us. That was frustrating as hell and made it hard to plan anything.

    I know emergency jobs come up that really need to get done even if it's not convenient for employees. I liked a story that a coworker had told me about a machine shop he worked at. The shop normally gave the guys Christmas Eve and Christmas off but one year an important customer came to them with a hot job. The shop owner told them he'd have to run it past his guys because they were expecting to take the time off with their families. He went out to the shop floor and told them they could take the days off since that's what they were promised, but anyone who wanted to volunteer could name their price. The guys who were willing to work came up with a price, and the shop owner told the customer what it would take. The customer was more than willing to pay because they were in a bind and the shop employees who worked got a very healthy paycheck.

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    I know emergency jobs come up that really need to get done even if it's not convenient for employees. I liked a story that a coworker had told me about a machine shop he worked at. The shop normally gave the guys Christmas Eve and Christmas off but one year an important customer came to them with a hot job. The shop owner told them he'd have to run it past his guys because they were expecting to take the time off with their families. He went out to the shop floor and told them they could take the days off since that's what they were promised, but anyone who wanted to volunteer could name their price. The guys who were willing to work came up with a price, and the shop owner told the customer what it would take. The customer was more than willing to pay because they were in a bind and the shop employees who worked got a very healthy paycheck.

    Cool story sounds like everybody came out good.

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  4. #163
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    When you work a holiday you are already getting paid for the day without working. Double time would just be your normal pay plus the holiday pay. We always received triple time for holidays but I never worked Christmas day. When I had people work for me, I always supplied them with the nicest equipment. Air conditioned shop, downdraft welding table, the latest top of the line auto darkening welding helmet, top of the line tungsten sharpener. And in return I always got high quality work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    When I had people work for me, I always supplied them with the nicest equipment. Air conditioned shop, downdraft welding table, the latest top of the line auto darkening welding helmet, top of the line tungsten sharpener. And in return I always got high quality work.
    You overhear somebody say, "Man, we sure never had this the last place I worked" and you know the expense is worth it. Of course you still have to hire people with enough experience, not to mention upbringing, to regognize good equipment and the sacrifices necessary to provide it. Idiots—or workers with a previously inculcated adversarial attitude toward management (but I repeat myself) will treat it like junk, and turn it into junk.

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  8. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Idiots—or workers with a previously inculcated adversarial attitude toward management (but I repeat myself) will treat it like junk, and turn it into junk.
    Only if you tolerate it.

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  10. #166
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    I've posted this in another sub forum but I'll ask here too.

    "How are technical schools and colleges funded in the USA?"

    I'll add an extra question

    "How many machinists in the USA become machinists without ever having been in either a technical school or college?"

  11. #167
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    The USA still has apprenticeships for almost any trade. You don't see many journeymen on this site, but most of them get the higher paying jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    Only if you tolerate it.
    See previous posts about weeding them out during the interview process...

    "Why did you leave?"
    "The boss was an asshole."


    I once had a trade-school graduate brought in by his teacher, who didn't bat an eye when the punk bragged to me about how many grievances he had filed as a student. I wrote off the kid AND that training organization...

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    jpevner, YES.... victim..., I asked them how much they wanted to start, I paid them their asking price, I was decent to them, I worked beside them, I gave them direction when they were not sure how to do something, I bought them lunch a few times, I never yelled at them, I never promised them the world and I did everything I told them I would do.

    I held up my end of the bargain 100 percent, they did not, they called in sick, I caught them talking on their phones several times, I had to keep asking them to keep their safety glasses on..., I bent over backwards trying to be a nice guy because I was desperate... they didn't work the week ends or the holiday... so please... what more was I suppose to do.

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    Just curious, you say you caught them on their phones. Did you ever call them on their phones during their off time? My wife works in a hospital. They have a no phone use during work rule that I agree with 100%. The only problem is they want to call you at home on your personal time. I always answer the phone and tell them there is a $50 charge to talk to her and ask them if they have a credit card.#. They all say I am an asshole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    jpevner, YES.... victim..., I asked them how much they wanted to start, I paid them their asking price, I was decent to them, I worked beside them, I gave them direction when they were not sure how to do something, I bought them lunch a few times, I never yelled at them, I never promised them the world and I did everything I told them I would do.

    I held up my end of the bargain 100 percent, they did not, they called in sick, I caught them talking on their phones several times, I had to keep asking them to keep their safety glasses on..., I bent over backwards trying to be a nice guy because I was desperate... they didn't work the week ends or the holiday... so please... what more was I suppose to do.

    That is wildly stretching the definition of victimhood. If you didn't like their work habits (which you didn't mention in the OP), then you are free to end the relationship. That's fair, and fine. It really doesn't matter if you are right or wrong. We obviously don't get to hear the other side. But, if you employ people, there is no way to get away from the issues involved in relating to other people. The only way to get out of that is to be a one man shop. It works pretty well for some people(Limy ?). The next group of people will have their peculiarities too. I'm reasonably sure you do as well. If you are filled up with feelings of self-pity and self-righteousness, then I think it will be difficult. Because this forum is mostly owners/managers, you will probably receive a lot of atta-boys and "damn right"s. Don't get too caught up in that. The key for me in managing other people(the few times I did) was to make sure I never projected the idea that I was better or more valid than they were because of the org chart. With that in mind, I never got less than 100%. I am not suggesting you are a bad person, just that you are letting your personal feelings get in the way.

    regards,

    Jon P.

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  20. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    jpevner, YES.... victim..., I asked them how much they wanted to start, I paid them their asking price, I was decent to them, I worked beside them, I gave them direction when they were not sure how to do something, I bought them lunch a few times, I never yelled at them, I never promised them the world and I did everything I told them I would do.

    I held up my end of the bargain 100 percent, they did not, they called in sick, I caught them talking on their phones several times, I had to keep asking them to keep their safety glasses on..., I bent over backwards trying to be a nice guy because I was desperate... they didn't work the week ends or the holiday... so please... what more was I suppose to do.
    Certainly not calling you a liar but it'd be nice to hear how "the other side" tell that.

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    “Certainly not calling you a liar.”

    Wow! Where is the unlike button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flail View Post
    “Certainly not calling you a liar.”

    Wow! Where is the unlike button.
    All you need now are trumpets sounding the attack

    If I heard the version from the "other side" and it was more credible then, and only then would/could I say "liar".

    I believe the expression is "Giving the benefit of doubt".

    The poster certainly believes his side of the story but we have only heard one side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    Just curious, you say you caught them on their phones. Did you ever call them on their phones during their off time? My wife works in a hospital. They have a no phone use during work rule that I agree with 100%. The only problem is they want to call you at home on your personal time. I always answer the phone and tell them there is a $50 charge to talk to her and ask them if they have a credit card.#. They all say I am an asshole.
    Some companies actually pay you some fixed fee if you have to pick up your phone during your free days or on the middle of the night. I mark half an hour for every phone call outside office hours. Its not much if you NEED the info but it also keeps no-nonsense phone calls at minimum.

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  25. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portable Welder View Post
    jpevner, YES.... victim..., I asked them how much they wanted to start, I paid them their asking price, I was decent to them, I worked beside them, I gave them direction when they were not sure how to do something, I bought them lunch a few times, I never yelled at them, I never promised them the world and I did everything I told them I would do.

    I held up my end of the bargain 100 percent, they did not, they called in sick, I caught them talking on their phones several times, I had to keep asking them to keep their safety glasses on..., I bent over backwards trying to be a nice guy because I was desperate... they didn't work the week ends or the holiday... so please... what more was I suppose to do.
    I've had a few like that. The two most noteworthy were two of the best fitters I've had and I'd say we've become friends several years now after parting ways....really good guys but with a completely different expectations of what a competitive shop can pay.

    We get this dynamic where you get this very lucrative government jobs that pay extremely well and no one seems to care how long they take or how much waste there is and the overtime is endless. A tunnel, a hospital, that sort of thing. While it pisses me off that the government crowds out the private sector by paying so much more, the tit for tat is that these jobs are short lived whereas I strive to keep the work steady. I can't do so and pay $45/h. I've found these young guys who've made the big bucks have a difficult time settling in the steady but lower paying ($25/h) shop jobs.

    Compatibility with the team and business is a big part of picking who to hire.

  26. #177
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    Gordon and jpevner, they were brand new, one guy 3 weeks, the other one week, I was in a bind so I had to deal with their crap to get the job done ( Bite my Tongue )

    You guys would make good union reps for the company slugs.

    And no, I did not call them at home, did I call my old guys that were with me for years, Yes, but they also got bonuses, I would let them borrow tools, pay them for personal time off, let them use the lake cottage and boat, buy them breakfast and lunch through out the year and bonuses also.

    I might be a lot of things, but theirs 3 things I'm not #1 a liar, #2 a thief and #3 a exaggerator.

  27. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    Just curious, you say you caught them on their phones. Did you ever call them on their phones during their off time? My wife works in a hospital. They have a no phone use during work rule that I agree with 100%. The only problem is they want to call you at home on your personal time. I always answer the phone and tell them there is a $50 charge to talk to her and ask them if they have a credit card.#. They all say I am an asshole.
    Funny thing about that...

    In one of our many visits to labor office to clarify silly management ideas over the years this type of thing came up.

    The answer was quite funny in the way they answered and we use it still.

    Simply put...ANYTIME that you are doing ANYTHING that benefits your employer in ANY WAY you are on the clock...PERIOD.

    so if they call you at 3 pm on Saturday asking a question and you talk for 10 minutes then that 10 minutes are paid time.

    If you leave your property then minimum reporting time rules may apply.

    Most do not report it but it can be recorded in a calendar and redeemed for things like doctors appointments or other things.

    Remember if you are full time then it may be OT so the 10 minute. Call is 15 minutes off...

    If management abuses the privilege of calling or is nasty then report the time ( verify how done in your state) and after challenged by management why a 10 minute hit on time card you can talk about the labor rule above and management usually gets a surprised look and things often get better.

    Most of the time time management is such that scorecards are not needed but sometimes they are.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Certainly not calling you a liar but it'd be nice to hear how "the other side" tell that.
    The other side doens't pay the bills and is replaceable, that's all that matters. Nobody cares about what their version is, they're fired and free to go show somebody else how good and hard working they are now.

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    I am not a believer in reporting things and getting people in trouble, I handle it myself. It wouldn't be so bad if it happened once every couple of months but they tried calling her 3 times in one week. And at 11:30 at night. They are very disorganized, scheduling the same person at two different locations at the same time.


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