First time considering a product

Hi

Question to... well... everyone... but mainly those who came up with a product and then decided to manufacture it (or not)... How did you find (or try to find) whether your product was worth making?

I have an idea for a product and I'm making it myself. I'm making it for myself to use. I've been disappointed with every commercially available one I've tried. It's for photography, which is my third hobby/job. I thought there's a chance others might be interested in it too.

Is there anything to do other than making a prototype and posting on photography forums and groups? If I do get an impression others would be interested in this product, I guess I can consider Kickstarter, or maybe approach local (or not local) photography stores.

I know there some people here make their own products and I'm interested to know what you did. If there are already thread about this can you please post links (I couldn't find them)? Although this is not going to be my main thing, I like my main jobs/hobbies and prefer this to be a side project.

Thank you!

If it’s a set of D-mount extension tubes, I am already at that. Available soon

If it’s a tripod with geared head for motion-picture cameras, we have competition.

If it’s a bomb that can be dropped on Taylor, Taylor & Hobson in Leicester, I’m in. They sold unrepairable lenses in the 50s that would cost $1,000 today, for example the Serital 1.5 inch f/1.9 I’m having here.

If it’s a film developing kit, spiral reels perhaps, you have again competition. Mind to tell a little more?

clarnibass said:

How did you find (or try to find) whether your product was worth making?

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Make some (5 or 10) and start trying to sell them every way you can think of. It doesn't matter if you lose money on the first couple (because making 5 of something typically costs a ton more than making 5000 of something) - you would much rather have made 5 that didn't sell than to have bought 5,000 that didn't sell, or God forbid, started a manufacturing company to make something that didn't wind up selling.

If you make 5 and they all sell, make 20. If those all sell, make 100. If those all sell, you might be on to something. (This obviously scales with price-point, but the fact that you're talking about 'product' means we're talking higher quantities.) If you can sell enough of them to justify going out and buying machines at $50,000 to $500,000 a pop, and presumably learning how to use them, hiring employees, etc.,etc. - more power to you.

I, personally, HATE Kickstarter for this type of thing. I saw some guy posting the other day about his Kickstarter campaign to make some of those stupid spinning fidget toys. What the heck do you need a Kickstarter to do that for!? Bunch of spodes who just want other people's money. Kickstarter, in my opinion, is for larger projects that have a broad scope and appeal - not broke and stupid people trying to cash in on the latest fad (which isn't what you're doing - just a pet peeve of mine.)

Good luck!

If you wish to patent an item the you should keep it on the QT. Make one or a few to iron out the bugs and to gain ideas about how to make. Field test it to be sure it works. Having a few trusted friends in the trade associated with such or using such ask if they think it a good product and would they buy it foe X dollars. If you are an old hand in the trade then perhaps you know it a good idea, and only need to know how to produce at a price. ., (Some people might try to be kind and so give poor advice to encourage a poor product) the idea to mail yourself a invention date signed at the seal only works for the people you show not for the guy across town.

Make 20 and show it or put on EBay and it becomes everybody’s product,

A patent likely to cost perhaps $4k or more..
You can go on Google patent search to find if patentable..But a similar something or even a dissimilar something may have a patented feature of another device. so the patent office may find a conflict you did not think of..

My patent in the works.. The patent office has stated all claims except one are good. They suggested corrections in wording the my against has corrected. So as of now it looks like it might be good. I have a friend in Standish with the needed knowledge and machine shop to make it. Likely try to get on shark Tank but not easy to get on with perhaps a 3 mill a year product.

I have perhaps 3 other good ideas but really don’t need the money and so have been lagging on development.
One is perhaps $100s million and another perhaps $15k a year.

One idea I had , made prototype, field tested, drew up a patent app but never sublimated .. Last year a less efficient similar device went on Shark tank and they bought it.

*True everybody thinks their idea is the cat's meow til they try to sell it.

Making something is another big hassle. I am associated with a new product development now. The prime owner a successful banker type who has never been in manufacturing, A successful Insurance guy, and a auto mechanic type..
I am the only one with manufacturing and engineering history.. They want to produce with back yard skills to make product at a snail’s rate but pat themselves on the back for working so hard. I am making up gauges, patterns, set-up and measuring devices, part holding fixtures, and a production line…and suffer wasteful discussions with ever move because They feel they need to have input so I have to go their way a bit then go the right way... We need to produce at twice the hand-made speed to be compete and make a profit.

michiganbuck said:

One idea I had , made prototype, field tested, drew up a patent app but never sublimated .. Last year a less efficient similar device went on Shark tank and they bought it.

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And even if you had submitted for, and been granted your patent, you likely would have lost any legal battle to ownership, or any right to claim it was your design, or that you deserved any of the proceeds.

We've kind of hammered patents to death on this forum: in many cases, they're pretty much useless, which is why legal reform of the system has been talked about by politicians for years. The only people really winning in the current patent law system are the 'Patent Trolls'

Any idea for a product, patented or not, is worthless until it's in the market.

Still if you produce with no protection you are (may be) out of the market with the first showing of your product..Agree it is a tough call. My product is so simple China could make it in a heart beat...licence it out would be my best bet but I need the patent for that. Perhaps sell it for the cost of the patent and get a small royalty would be the best bet.

Just my suggestion. Depending on the level of risk of course, if you believe in it, build a lot first and put them out there. My experience was with a little milling accessory I advertised for a couple months in a magazine. It was simple enough to make 5, but they sold fast and I needed 5 more, then 10 more... I was behind, people were pissed, I was frustrated trying to do it all myself. Everything took longer than I thought. At the end of 2 months I'd sold 110pcs. Lots of things I did wrong and learned from but one big one was not to MTO. Its a good way to get burned out just tip-toeing into things making a few at a time. If I have done it right, done it big (relatively speaking), gotten a decent supply chain together with 100 pcs on the shelf things would have been different.

Second comment. The more you think about it, the more you tell people your idea and ask for their feedback, every time you try and anticipate the level of interest and sales with an open mind you loose a little of your motivation to actually do it. Its like your drive bleeds away the more you talk about it. Do it, do it fast, and adjust as you go. It takes 10 positive compliments to offset a negative. That's how this is. Best not to even open yourself up to the negative criticism. It might help refine your idea true, but it also might just serve to dissuade you entirely. I'm falling into that myself right now. If I keep this up pretty soon I'll be like any other guy with a good idea that will do nothing with it. Analyzing it into inaction.

Thank you everyone!

I think I like the idea to just make a few and then see how it goes. The thing is, I wouldn't really know how to sell them. I think the local photography groups don't allow commercial sales. We don't have big forums with classifieds like in the USA.
eBay? Not sure anyone would buy this without trying or knowing anything when they can buy something locally. Maybe?
The issues I'm trying to solve with my version are such that you need to use it to see the adavantage, it doesn't go through in photos of videos.
Maybe approaching photography equipment stores? Though the local market in my tiny country is very small.

To clarify a few things...

I'm absolutely not going to patent anything. Not worth the hassle, time or money to mess with this. I rather not make it at all than patent anything.

Johnny SolidWorks said:

This obviously scales with price-point, but the fact that you're talking about 'product' means we're talking higher quantities.

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No, more like it's my second language and I don't know the correct terms to use

Johnny SolidWorks said:

...to make some of those stupid spinning fidget toys.... the latest fad (which isn't what you're doing - just a pet peeve of mine.)

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Yes, I don't know why anyone would buy one of those anyway...

The "product"(?) I'm considering making is something I actually want to have and use. That's why I'm making it for myself. Making more and selling them could be nice but I don't really need to do this because...

I repair musical instruments (my main job) and the machining I do is for that. I can make this "product" myself, it would probably work as well as one made by a machine shop that is better set up for that, but it probably wouldn't look as nice (unless I spend a ridiculous amount of time).

Johnny SolidWorks said:

If you can sell enough of them to justify going out and buying machines at $50,000 to $500,000 a pop, and presumably learning how to use them, hiring employees, etc.,etc. - more power to you.

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I don't want to do that. That would take too much "life" and I rather continue doing what I'm doing right now. I don't want this to be anything more than a side project/job that wouldn't take a very significant amount of time. I wouldn't buy any more machines, hire anyone, etc. to make this product. If I see I need a larger quantity I will have a machine shop that is set up for that make me the parts and I have a friend who will gladly help with assembling.

I know of about nine similar products varying in prices from $20 to about $500. I've tried most of those, including cheap and expensive ones, and couldn't find one that I thought was good enough, regardless of price. That is why I'm making it for myself. It will work as a product if enough people are also looking for what I'm looking for... and I don't know that.

I considered the idea to get another company that is already in the field to make/market it for a royalty payment, or something like that. What I suspect is they agree, then in a few days my product pops up under seven different names... then I'm in a losing battle to even get paid at all and the last thing I want is to have a significant part of my life dedicated to something like this. In that case I rather forget about the whole thing

Thanks again

clarnibass said:

I know of about nine similar products varying in prices from $20 to about $500. I've tried most of those, including cheap and expensive ones, and couldn't find one that I thought was good enough, regardless of price.

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Where did you buy these? And how did you find out about them?

I'd suggest selling yours in the same place, and telling people about them the same way.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes

I can only speak to this portion based on what I've read but my understanding is that a lot of companies won't talk to you without a patent. Problems if you don't have one and they talk: lawsuits acusing you of stealing, what if they're already working on something similar, etc.

I like your philosophy of "just build it" and see what happens. I'd think it would be have to be a relatively huge success in order for it to be worth stealing. As I think you already know though, once you show your idea in public, a patent is off the table. Have to keep it under wraps.

Good luck,
The Dude

You can sign a disclosure agreement. we did that with Coleman

You know Amazon will fulfill orders for you, even as a small-time seller. (You can even sell your used stuff there.) If you make enough to stock them to whatever level they require, they can handle all the stuff, including showing up in searches, transactions, and returns. You'll have to prepare yourself for returns, because people will buy it, use it, break it, and return it. But you can build all that into your pricing, since there are no other selling prices of your specific item to refer to. Now, there will be similar products that show up on the same page, with prices listed, so there will be competition from those nine items. That's where you have the opportunity to state your case, and show the differences/improvements/benefits/whatever. Camera/photo-related gear is a popular category on Amazon. If you consider 'patent pending' that will buy you a little time before you have to patent for real, but still gives you some protection. If it crashes and burns, then walk away. Or, do a Creative Commons type 'license' where attribution is required. Not sure how that would work in the physical world, though... Having a trusted friend as your agent stateside, with a written agreement between you, may help with the 'remote control' side of things.

Good luck!
Chip

You can sign a disclosure agreement with a company and with that they agree that is it is not on one of their drawing boards they will nit star it with not giving you some claim.. We did that with Coleman and took our new idea out to Wichita .. Nice bunch of guys and they liked it but could convince big wigs to put it into production. About 12 tears later they came out with a similar product…But that was fair as we had plenty of time to produce it and did not.

All job shop owners want a product, I've heard it a hundred times. The beauty of job shop is that you make 200 pcs., ship them to the customer and then in 30-45 days you get paid. Then you have the guy with his own product. He makes 200 widgits, puts them on the shelf and then tries to figure out how to tell the world about them while they sit.

Ask me how I know Ball Vise | Work Positioner | Work Positioning System | PivotLok

Everybody (small business and large corps.) that buy one ALWAYS come back for more. I have numerous unit at SpaceX, Pratt & Whitney, Boeing etc. etc. but without a good marketing plan and the money to fund it the product just sits around waiting for that occasional sale.

If you want your own product then build a prototype and make sure it works and then sit down and expend a lot of time and energy figuring out how you're going to sell it. Forget the patent. A patent is only as good as your ability to defend it which can start at $100K and move quickly north. Just get your product to market and the rest will take care of itself.

One way to test market is to show it in use on some of the camera forums and say you are interested in feedback because you might make them available. I have seen this done with good success although I have never done it myself.

See what feedback you get then private message a couple of the active posters on the forum who commented on it then offer to send them one to evaluate and post their opinions. The forums are the number one place to create a buzz about a product that results in sales.

We launched a successful camera product line with the forums being our greatest asset. Berkey System –

PM me if I can be of any help.

Dan

If you are thinking about marketing the item, start the patent process, before "advertising" your idea to friends, or building a proto type.

vmipacman said:

Just my suggestion. Depending on the level of risk of course, if you believe in it, build a lot first and put them out there. My experience was with a little milling accessory I advertised for a couple months in a magazine. It was simple enough to make 5, but they sold fast and I needed 5 more, then 10 more... I was behind, people were pissed, I was frustrated trying to do it all myself. Everything took longer than I thought. At the end of 2 months I'd sold 110pcs. Lots of things I did wrong and learned from but one big one was not to MTO. Its a good way to get burned out just tip-toeing into things making a few at a time. If I have done it right, done it big (relatively speaking), gotten a decent supply chain together with 100 pcs on the shelf things would have been different.

Second comment. The more you think about it, the more you tell people your idea and ask for their feedback, every time you try and anticipate the level of interest and sales with an open mind you loose a little of your motivation to actually do it. Its like your drive bleeds away the more you talk about it. Do it, do it fast, and adjust as you go. It takes 10 positive compliments to offset a negative. That's how this is. Best not to even open yourself up to the negative criticism. It might help refine your idea true, but it also might just serve to dissuade you entirely. I'm falling into that myself right now. If I keep this up pretty soon I'll be like any other guy with a good idea that will do nothing with it. Analyzing it into inaction.

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The talking about it too much thing is definitely true, I've had 'project strap-on' (looking for a new code name for the project....) on my bench for a year, it got off to a flyer and has stalled with the yapping and over analysing, it only needs a week of intensive work to get the first one finished. I know it will sell (its a bit of a Kevin Potter type product). If your product is going to fail, may as well make it happen as quickly as possible and move on.

'Strap on' stalled for a silly reason, that I could not come up with an elegant engineering solution to one small detail on the machine, that really is not that important on Mk.1. Im trying to design it so that its good, and basically not worth ripping the design off as its cant be made any cheaper / better. Might come together quicker if I was skint and a bit hungrier for it ! Typing this might give me the kick I need to finish it, now its all written down

Gar47 said:

If you are thinking about marketing the item, start the patent process, before "advertising" your idea to friends, or building a proto type.

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Just get a provisional patent unless your product demands that type of protection. As I said in my previous post, a patent is only as good as your ability to defend it and the USPTO requires you to defend it or lose it. Remember, defending a patent is a very costly process. Just get the product to market.

Since you repair musical instruments you might be familiar with a company such as Stewart-Macdonald (and this is not a commercial plug because I have no connection with them). Their catalogue shows a lot of tooling that I suspect is made by small shops. I suggest looking for a similar company that deals with photographic items, because you know how to make your product and they will know whether they can sell it.