Giving job references

I got a call the other day from a company that wants to hire a former employee.
The problem is that he worked for me over 7 years ago . When I heard the name , I kinda groaned and without really thinking , blurted out that in the year he worked for me , he was late or no show 31 times, and he was terminated for cause .
I am starting to feel a bit bad about this .
After 7 years , he is probably a different person , and I'd hate to be the one to deprive him of a job . In fairness I did add that he did work hard once he did show up , and part of his tardiness was due to his fleet of junkers that were either broke down or out of gas .
Still , I have to wonder why he didn't get references from more recent jobs .
Any opinions on what to say /not to say ?

You told the truth and if he didn't call you and make you aware of his job application with this company, you had nothing else to go on but what happened at your company. If he is changed for the good, I would think he would have contacted you before hand.

You did fine, you told the truth and you added information that he would want the asker to know.

Legally the only safe route is to confirm employment beginning and ending dates and nothing else. That is really frustrating for the prospective employer, so I try to feel out the employer to see how big they are, etc. and then offer the best info I can if it's a small company without getting into personal subjective opinions.

This subject is a real minefield, some people are suing when your comments keep them from getting hired. There is good info about this on the web, but I can't tell you where to find it just now.

You would do well to attend a seminar on employment law put on by a respectable business law office in your town.

You did what any sane and normal person would do, however, you likely put yourself in harms way at the same time although it is unlikely anything will come of it.

As Mudflap stated - former employers can and do get sued for stuff like that.

I used to say something like

"I never give a report about a former employee unless it is positive and that is all I have to say about this person"

Now I just keep it to dates of start / end of employment and I will answer the question of whether or not I would hire them again.

Too many lawyers running around looking for a quick buck and these kinds of things are too easy to get picked off on.

Bob,

He would usually use only friendly references &
if he used you as a referee, & was terminated by you, it suggests that could not get a better referee than you,..which suggests that has has not improved too much in the mean time.

You did the right thing.

Regards from Melbourne,Australia,

AAB

From what Im familiar with about giving references... You are only supposed to answer direct questions if it is a potentially negative response.

The right way:

Did he show up to work on time?
No
How often was he late?
31 times in a year

Was he a hard worker?
No
What instances made you feel he was not a hard worker?
He would come to work, and then disappear for an hour after clocking in.

DId he get a long with other employees?
No
What were some of the problems?
He would fight and pick on other employees constantly.


The WRONG way:

Did this guy work for you?

Oh yeah, he did, but not no more, he was always late, didnt do nothin, would disappear right after he clocked in, and then on top of it, he would fight and pick on other employees constantly.

The main thing is I feel it really forced the the prospective employer to be very deliberate in the questions about the ex employee - making it hard for someone to give a bad reference on a good worker just because they disagreed or werent good friends. sort of a "just the fact ma'am" kind of deal... But hard to say, you may have answered the questions they were going to ask anyway, and not have stepped out of bounds. I have heard of bad references coming back to bite people, but from what i have seen, the outcomes reinforced what I feel the main idea behind it is... The ones that gave bad references by answering the questions and only the questions were fine... the ones that were holding a grudge and badmouthing... they had to squirm a little.

If it were me, I wouldnt feel bad at all, and not worry about it.

Wade

I wonder if a fella could make a living pretending to be a perspective employer coaxing you into saying the wrong stuff and then filing a lawsuit, a while back we had a guy around that would sit out front of the local bars and turn in most of the folks leaving in order to get the $100.00 reward for keeping drunks off the road.
Anyhow you have no idea who is on the other end of the phone unless you know them personaly, my inclination would be to not volenteer any info, and be cautious of the questions I answered. What is done is done and likely won't turn into anything, just something to think about for next time.

Highly unlikely scenario, but he could have been working for a (single) different company for 7 years and was looking to move on from them, but didn't want his current employer to know he was looking, and thus couldn't provide "current" references.

A little OT, but has anyone been asked for references *after* the interview? Awhile back, I applied for a job, and they never asked for references, which I thought was odd. I had a couple "phone interviews" at first. Then they flew me out for a couple days, I interviewed and came back home. FINALLY, they asked for references right at the end. Funny thing is, doing the math, they never even bothered to contact the references I provided before sending out the offer letter. I didn't end up taking the job, but thought that was extremely odd.

On the other hand, he could have been in prison for the past seven years, and didn't have any other references to offer. You can't know his situation, since he didn't contact you, first. You told the truth, and nothing but the truth, so don't sweat it. If he really wanted the job, he wouldn't have given you as a reference.

Maybe it was just a mandatory job search for his unemployment check that accidentally turned into an interview!

The best defense against a slander accusation is the truth. Just be careful to not say anything you can't prove.

After hiring engineers for almost 20 years I got pretty good at the HR question game. In the end it usually boiled down to whether the applicant lied on his application and/or resume (or neglected that little stay behind bars) and the answer from prior employers to the question "Would you have him back if you could?" That was the one question you could always get an answer to, even from the most uptight HR department geeks.

On the other hand, he could have been in prison for the past seven years, and didn't have any other references to offer.

Click to expand...

Maybe he was doing time for stalking someone that didn't give a good reference.
SM

As stated, telling the truth can't hurt. If he was late twice and you said always or 31 times, small issue maybe. The suits that I've read about were along the lines of: I could not prove he was stealing but I thought so... That can dig you a hole deep and quick.

When I've gotten these calls about long ago employees its big companies and some goverment jobs, HR people would not have much confidence in 7 year old job reviews, I sure wouldn't. Its more about checking out his resume, and looking for glaring omissions and the like.

legal minefield; either state start and end employment dates only, or choose your words carefully.

some suggestions that float around:

For the chronically absent:
"A man like him is hard to find."
"It seemed her career was just taking off."

For the office drunk:
"I feel his real talent is wasted here."
"We generally found him loaded with work to do."
"Every hour with him was a happy hour."

For an employee with no ambition:
"He could not care less about the number of hours he had to put in."
"You would indeed be fortunate to get this person to work for you."

For an employee who is so unproductive that the job is better left unfilled:
"I can assure you that no person would be better for the job."

For an employee who is not worth further consideration as a job candidate:
"I would urge you to waste no time in making this candidate an offer of
employment."
"All in all, I cannot say enough good things about this candidate or
recommend him too highly."

For a stupid employee:
"There is nothing you can teach a man like him."
"I most enthusiastically recommend this candidate with no qualifications
whatsoever."

For a dishonest employee:
"Her true ability was deceiving."
"He's an unbelievable worker."

Could be that the business(es) more recent than yours no longer exist. That's happened to me.

Or that personal references newer than you have died or relocated to some far corner of the country and can't be located. Happened to me.

Or, a newer manager is bad mouthing the former worker about a problem, apparently unaware it was due to a medical condition that had worsened. Happened to me.
Seems the supervisor never forwarded the info regarding the cause and solution to his boss or HR.

Stuff happens, the business world is not static.

If it goes to court, even the truth may not be enough to protect you. If the truth is: he was chronically late, stole from the company, and came to work drunk, it's not inconceivable that a slick attorney could convince a jury that such statements, while true, may rise to the level of slander, in that they damaged the candidate's reputation, and prevented him from obtaining gainful employment. While it may "set you free", don't count on the truth to keep you out of trouble.

SlicerMan: I hadn't considered that possibility! Better to keep your eyes peeled, and your hand not far from your piece!

joecr - lol. Here's one that I actually got - While trying to cajole a manager at a large company to tell me something about a potential hire, in exasperation she finally said, "Look, listen to me carefully," paused, and went on to say "If I COULD give you a GOOD recommendation on this person, I WOULD." She did her best to clue me in, and I got the message.

Motion guru said

Now I just keep it to dates of start / end of employment and I will answer the question of whether or not I would hire them again.

Click to expand...

My ex wife has worked as a nursing manager in a facility owned by the State of NC for over 15 years. The attorney general of NC long ago advised all state agencies to restrict their reference responses to just what Motion says, and nothing more. According to the AG's office, its the ONLY safe response, because its just an objective statement of what YOU would do, without stating any specific subjective opinions. While you may have documented proof of problems with the employee, passing that information on can land you in court to prove your "proof" to the satisfaction of the court. Even if you win, you still lose because it costs so much to play the game. A simple "would not rehire" cannot be disproven, so there's nothing to litigate, right or wrong.

When you stop and think about it, whether they would or would not rehire is all you need to know from a former employer. Most all employers would apply the same criteria in determining that they would not rehire, so it really doesn't matter whether the specific reason is because they were incompetent or lazy or alcoholic or a thief or just a general ass who everyone wished would go away.