Health Insurance Check in . . . - Page 3
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 74
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    49
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    Actually, that is the insurance premium only - we also kick in another ~$4100 / employee per year into their HSA to keep their out of pocket deductible to a reasonable amount. We elected to go to a high deductible plan + HSA so they could have control over more of the money for medical expenses on their own (typically used for things that insurance doesn't cover like braces, Lasic surgery, etc.) If they don't use it, it just rolls over to the next year and it keeps on building up. I suppose at some point they can use it to pay their portion of the premiums (not sure what the law is about this)

    So the total health care expense for this employee and family is more along the lines of $37,580 / year. Add in medicare, SS, L&I, etc. and OH hourly rate for medical and wage related costs is close to $30/hour. Then add in business insurance, building, phones, IT, equipment, etc. and it is easy to see how Overhead per employee is close to $100k / year plus the actual salary itself over and above that. This is why we need to charge upwards of $110/hour shop time and $149/hour for engineering.

    The employee does pay 25% of the base premium (roughly $700 / month in this case) . . . but still, I remember when the entire premium was on the order of $700/mo for everything rather than it being just the employee's portion of the payment


    Getting back to the OP's original topic. That price is high even when one includes the increased prices due to the Trump changes. Many places in your state are experiencing increases from 15-30% next year. Before the increases, with a company of 25 employees and using a HSA, you should expect to pay 15-20k for health insurance (that covers the employee and employer contributions to the premium, but not the employer contributions to the HSA). If 33k for the plan premium is after the increases for next year...that's still high. I suggest you shop around for a better deal. At 25 employees, you will get a discount beyond what an individual will be charged.

    As always, take everything I write with a grain of salt.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    6,284
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    5081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by medsar View Post
    ....... I suggest you shop around for a better deal. At 25 employees, you will get a discount beyond what an individual will be charged.
    ......
    Knowing what little I do about Motion, his company and given his previous posts on the subject I suspect he has been doing the due diligence and shopping.
    Having done it since the late 70s I know shopping this is not easy, so many details and fine print and that fine print can screw you.
    Standardizing of plans was sort of a good idea but still so many options.
    I hate it, it eats up a week of time, and is just plain confusing but it is a part of the job every year as it is serious money now.

    I can not place blame on any president, there have been too many and the relentless march upwards goes on regardless.
    We get stutter steps where increases slow for one or two years at times of political interest only to be hit later with a catch up.

    One can play the switch companies every year depending on who raises rates at which day but in the end it all equals out and this makes a mess for your employees. I gave up on this cost saving technique in the 80s.

    All in all I'm surprised that the system has not self destructed yet. Has seemed like a oncoming train wreck for quite a while now.
    The last 30-40 years have been great for productivity improvement in the US primary due to computers, cncs, robots and we have come a long ways.
    This has not led to increasing wages or a 32 hour work week but has paid for health care. Not sure how far we can stretch this.

    Perhaps this opens the door to more small shops with part-time workers or not providing health care who can operate at $40 or less per hour.
    Wondering what our rapid progress in efficiency and productivity and has meant for the average working man's quality of life.

    Motion's numbers should be a wake up call but I fear it will not be answered as we have not reached critical mass yet.
    He has a decent sized shop and needs talent so not many options.
    He is also big enough to fall under the big shop rules so maybe he is the "rich guy" whining. .....( I don't buy that for a second, walk a mile in his or my shoes)

    What are you guys doing at the 20 employees or less level?

    Huge deductibles not covered, no plan at all, part timers, ever increasing employee contributions, eat it and be happy?
    How do you cover your guys and gals and are you okay with it?
    Is it your dues to cover this mess for your people or not so much as the costs are beyond your control?
    Some here have to be the 2,4,6,8,12 man shops in the US, what do you do?
    Not employees which will have a understandable different POV but owners/managers with P&L responsibility, how do you handle it and why?

    Should we as employers do survival of the fittest? Is that our calling now?
    Perhaps an absurd question but it is becoming real.
    Bob

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    tucson arizona usa
    Posts
    5,015
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2101
    Likes (Received)
    4588

    Default

    I wanted to offer health insurance for our company we have 8 fulltime employees. I got quotes and for a decent plan that actually covered stuff it exceeded there pay, well almost. We have pay that ranges from 15 and hour to over 20 dollars an hour and the coverage for the whole shop was going to run around 13 grand per month. I was not able to afford it and it has cost me because we lose employees to companies that can. These are large corporations and the state and federal government that we compete against. I now pay 2300 for my family per month with a 5000 dollar per person deductible. This is reaching a level of crazy and I doubt it will end here. I am pretty sure this will go on until there is not one dollar left on in the pockets of americans. I have had a catastrophic insurance event and we were uninsurable till obama care kicked in. I dont qualify for subsidies so we pay the full amount.

  4. Likes dstryr liked this post
  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    6,284
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    5081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kpotter View Post
    I wanted to offer health insurance for our company we have 8 fulltime employees. I got quotes and for a decent plan that actually covered stuff it exceeded there pay, well almost. ....
    Not sure your avenue here. Eight fulltime and nothing for the employees?
    All of which I get. HTF did we end up here?
    Sometimes you can join the local chamber of commerce or such and get yourself into a bigger pool for not much money so the rates get a bit better.
    Do I let employees or their kids die to keep my business going?
    Kind of hard to live with that and not so sure how that tallies up at my end.

    I brought them in, they make my paycheck.
    I take care of them, I am their leader and protector....that is why I make the big bucks above them.
    This is my job and responsibility despite any downfalls.
    Good and bad and you have to spank them sometimes, they are my guys and gals and I will not fail them as their leader and mentor.

    My crew is my life, any loss or oh-shit on their end is mine also, no man left behind.
    This is what you sign up for if you want to be a boss. Any less and you are not understanding the way it works.
    Every single person you employ is under your wing and that means their life problems are your worry.
    Bob

  6. Likes kpotter liked this post
  7. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Country
    CHINA
    Posts
    1,813
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    ... owners/managers with P&L responsibility, how do you handle it and why?
    Decided years ago to stay tiny for this reason. If I get sick I die. Pretty much like it was for my ancestors in the 1700's, so I don't feel like bitching too much ... until some doofus tells me how great it is.

    For the people I am responsible for, I just do the best I can. That's all you can do. They come first, I come second, government comes last. If the gubmint needs more money they can close an air force base somewhere.

    Should we as employers do survival of the fittest? Is that our calling now ? Perhaps an absurd question but it is becoming real.
    Not absurd but yes. You don't have a choice. Starting in the eighties they remade the society this way - "greed is good !" let them eat cake, trickle down raises all boats, for every good job shipped overseas there will be four or five created at home !

    So here we are now at the inevitable conclusion. Nothing you can do about it at this point except watch it collapse like Rome, which did exactly the same thing 2000 years ago.

  8. #46
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    17,420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3541
    Likes (Received)
    10234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Decided years ago to stay tiny for this reason. If I get sick I die. Pretty much like it was for my ancestors in the 1700's, so I don't feel like bitching too much ... until some doofus tells me how great it is.

    For the people I am responsible for, I just do the best I can. That's all you can do. They come first, I come second, government comes last. If the gubmint needs more money they can close an air force base somewhere.


    Not absurd but yes. You don't have a choice. Starting in the eighties they remade the society this way - "greed is good !" let them eat cake, trickle down raises all boats, for every good job shipped overseas there will be four or five created at home !

    So here we are now at the inevitable conclusion. Nothing you can do about it at this point except watch it collapse like Rome, which did exactly the same thing 2000 years ago.
    Are you sure you know which country you live in?

  9. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    tucson arizona usa
    Posts
    5,015
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2101
    Likes (Received)
    4588

    Default

    I really want to provide all the benefits, I have sat down with the accountant and basically I need to almost double the gross revenue to generate enough profit to cover 8 employees and there family. The problem is if I could double the revenue with only 8 people and keep it going into the future. I would probably need at least 3 maybe 4 people to double what we do now and we would need a bigger shop. It is very frustrating. I dont know what the answer is because I thought if I got just a little larger I could offer benefits but it has not worked out that way. The taxes went up the inventory went up and the revenue only went up a little.

  10. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    6,284
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    5081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kpotter View Post
    ...... It is very frustrating.......
    That one phrase should be in caps, bold, underlined and a bigger font.

    Unseen by employees they tend to think the money tree is endless and think the boss hoarding the the cash and not caring.
    I came in when cover everything, no co-pay was easily buyable. $2.00 scripts of any brand, any doctor or specialists 100% covered, no out of pocket, no limits.
    What is now called "Cadillac or gold-plated" plans but what I once thought basic and normal.

    Then every year you had to trim something off. Cut or a little here and there each year, adds up over decades.
    Maybe the cutting has hit zero for some shops and I get that. Not happy but know the reality.
    Not sure this is progress and most certainly not continuous improvement which we push our people to do.
    Your honesty of what you need to do and wanted to do as a small shop is appreciated.
    Perhaps some just don't want to talk about it when they just plain can not buy such for their people.
    Bob

  11. Likes kpotter liked this post
  12. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Australia (Hobart)
    Posts
    3,196
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    421
    Likes (Received)
    2182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post

    My crew is my life, any loss or oh-shit on their end is mine also, no man left behind.
    This is what you sign up for if you want to be a boss. Any less and you are not understanding the way it works.
    Every single person you employ is under your wing and that means their life problems are your worry.
    Bob
    The way the trend is moving, in a few more years the health insurance cost component will exceed the wages paid to the employee. After that, it'll start consuming all the shop profits. You've already had to reduce the quality of service WRT policy cover. Eventually you'll have to decide between keeping the business alive and offering health insurance at all. Then what?

    You system is unsustainable. It's going to change because eventually it'll be broken beyond any more patching.

    PDW

  13. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    6,284
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    255
    Likes (Received)
    5081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    .....
    You system is unsustainable. It's going to change because eventually it'll be broken beyond any more patching.
    PDW
    Talking to the choir, I have been preaching this since the 80s but no real changes, just band aids.
    We can not absorb or bury the rate per year. Very simple math.
    Now at what point does it break? I thought a ways back but it marches on.
    You would kill your career as a elected official to be truthful to the electorate.
    People tend to think the are getting the short end of the stick from employers.
    Healthy young people do not want to pay for old people at the end of their lives......
    Long ago the price tag here passed the cost of material in an automobile. Yet somehow we still build cars.
    Bob

  14. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    1,140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    313
    Likes (Received)
    362

    Default

    44 here with wife and 3 kids.

    Business with me plus 3 full timers and currently some temp help.

    I don't provide health insurance.

    We (my family) had a high deductible plan we liked and then were kicked off it as O care kicked in. (Couldn't keep our plan as promised).

    Replacement plans were like a Mortgage payment with a high deductible as well. No thanks.

    Went to non-conforming 'temporary' health insurance.

    Rules were rewritten to outlaw temporary plans for longer than x months.

    Now we're on Liberty Health Share (Health Care cost sharing)

    These 'plans' have an exemption from O care.

    I figure I can trust them as well as the government/traditional health insurance.

    They cover yearly physicals from what we pay and renegotiate bills with providers.

    Just playing the game...should the worst happen we'd sign up with whatever we had to, to get the best care...get a govt. job with health care, etc.

  15. #52
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Country
    UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    4,279
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2006
    Likes (Received)
    1800

    Default

    Two things:-
    1) The Guvernment wasn't responsible for cutting off existing plans when ACA (Obamacare) came in. The Insurance Co's were.

    2) Best of luck and maybe getting SHMBO working with a government scheme is the bast plan.

  16. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Northern Il
    Posts
    978
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    582
    Likes (Received)
    966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jamscal View Post
    44 here with wife and 3 kids.

    Business with me plus 3 full timers and currently some temp help.

    I don't provide health insurance.

    We (my family) had a high deductible plan we liked and then were kicked off it as O care kicked in. (Couldn't keep our plan as promised).

    Replacement plans were like a Mortgage payment with a high deductible as well. No thanks.

    Went to non-conforming 'temporary' health insurance.

    Rules were rewritten to outlaw temporary plans for longer than x months.

    Now we're on Liberty Health Share (Health Care cost sharing)

    These 'plans' have an exemption from O care.

    I figure I can trust them as well as the government/traditional health insurance.

    They cover yearly physicals from what we pay and renegotiate bills with providers.

    Just playing the game...should the worst happen we'd sign up with whatever we had to, to get the best care...get a govt. job with health care, etc.
    Most of these types of plans work very well. There strength lies in a rather limited life style pool. i.e nonsmokers and moderate drinkers.

    Those two items in of themselves greatly reduce some very expensive lifestyle choices. Add to this that some things like birth control and gender switching operations aren't covered.

    Most of these plans have the health care consumer handling their bills personally and having to submit them to the care provider. The provider is also aware of some of the limitations and nature of the plan so I suspect that there is also a tendency on the health care provider to use some discretion in what services are rendered. i.e like not so many redundant tests.

    These plans are not for everyone being that they are usually faith based but it is interesting to see what can be done when a group of like minded individuals can do for reducing health care costs just by living a moderate life style.

    We have family members who have used a similar plan and like it. This includes one of them contracting cancer and eventually succumbing to the disease. The care they received was at least as good or better than the company plan I have and used most of the same providers including doctors.

    I think these plans are interesting in what happens to health care costs when some of the bad life style choices are removed from the risk pool. i.e substance abuse problems with the all of the attending secondary issues etc.

  17. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Country
    CHINA
    Posts
    1,813
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    You would kill your career as a elected official to be truthful to the electorate.
    I don't think this is true. Sure, there's a bunch of wackos who would scream about whatever you came up with but most people just want to solve the problem. And you can't solve it by playing word games.

    Now campaign contributions, on the other hand .... telling the truth would put you at odds with some very powerful people.

    Solve that then solving the health care problem would be trivial.

  18. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Northern Il
    Posts
    978
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    582
    Likes (Received)
    966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    I don't think this is true. Sure, there's a bunch of wackos who would scream about whatever you came up with but most people just want to solve the problem. And you can't solve it by playing word games.

    Now campaign contributions, on the other hand .... telling the truth would put you at odds with some very powerful people.

    Solve that then solving the health care problem would be trivial.
    I think the problem is more difficult than just the campaign donors.

    When we have about 47% of the population getting some sort of monthly check that equates to a considerable segment that are receiving some sort of subsidized health care. Not complaining about helping people but when you have one half receiving benefits without a direct connection to the cost and the other half having to pay for both halves, it makes for a difficult situation.

    Add to the issue that the politicians like to pander to certain groups to garner extra votes and you have a situation in which nothing gets done.

    The politicians carry the least risk by making promises and doing nothing. Promises sell well during the campaign and then when things don't happen, the politicians can claim they tried but it was the other guys fault for things not getting done.

    This is the M.O that Illinois has operated under for decades. Talk a lot and kick the can another couple of feet.

  19. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    marysville ohio
    Posts
    8,624
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2442
    Likes (Received)
    5467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    Two things:-
    1) The Guvernment wasn't responsible for cutting off existing plans when ACA (Obamacare) came in. The Insurance Co's were.

    2) Best of luck and maybe getting SHMBO working with a government scheme is the bast plan.
    CLUELESS, obamacare RULES forced insurance companies to cancel all insurance plans that did not follow the letter of the law. Cost me the high deductible plan I was on. The plan I can get on at my new job is a high deductible plan as well. The main difference is it costs per week what my old plan cost per month.

  20. Likes scadvice liked this post
  21. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    tucson arizona usa
    Posts
    5,015
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2101
    Likes (Received)
    4588

    Default

    I am 47 if I had to get a job because of insurance I doubt it would even be possible. The cost to insure my family would easily be 2300 per month for a decent policy. That works out to almost 30 grand just for insurance by the time they pay ssi taxes and a living wage I would cost them 75 grand a year and if I could produce a hundred grand of revenue that would be great but 25 grand profit from a single employee wont really keep the lights on. I have looked into this with very sincere intentions of getting everyone covered and I was unable to figure out how to do it. The hurdle was too high, my employees are young the oldest is 34 I used to have 55 year old women smoker and her policy was a thousand a month for her alone. I payed her 14 an hour to tape boxes and put things in them. We have 3 weeks payed vacation plus all federal holidays and sick days but insurance is just not going to happen unless we somehow double our revenue with our existing staff. I am hoping for single payer.

  22. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    "Stuck in Lodi", Ca
    Posts
    3,114
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1842
    Likes (Received)
    1617

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    ......................


    Sooo, one question : if the hospital business is so awful, why do financially-oriented companies like Sutter Health Care go around buying up all the community hospitals they can get their hands on ? Is it because they are genuine altruists dedicated to bringing us better health care at great cost to themselves ? And the profits are inconsequential ? You are saying there is no money to be made in the hospital biz after all, just cut those boys loose and prices will drop through the floor ? like when we gave Goldman-Sachs free reign in banking because it was in their rational best interest to be scrupulously honest and deliver prime quality services ?

    Seems like I heard this schtick before somewhere ?
    Ahh… you missed the point I was trying to make. As I said WE are the ones suffering the cost. Hospitals will find a way to continue to make their profit as I alluded to with my examples and as I remembered from those days I worked in that field. The issues are the differences between a procedures charged cost, the payment insurance companies are willing to pay, and the actual cost of the service plus profit margin. The hospitals will make a profit… but it is at our expense. They will charge more what they think they can get reimbursed for knowing that some day that charge it WILL be the accepted. Thus it will be increased again in anticipation of the future and government regulations.

  23. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Country
    CHINA
    Posts
    1,813
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I think the problem is more difficult than just the campaign donors.

    When we have about 47% of the population getting some sort of monthly check that equates to a considerable segment that are receiving some sort of subsidized health care. Not complaining about helping people but when you have one half receiving benefits without a direct connection to the cost and the other half having to pay for both halves, it makes for a difficult situation.
    Do you think that people are that stupid and venal ? Obviously what we have cannot work. Just look at these numbers, they are even worse than I imagined. So, in say less than ten years there will be no companies and no work in the US.

    Do you think that if we tell people the facts, they are too retarded to deal with real solutions ?

    If the public cannot be trusted to make rational decisions when presented with the facts, then the whole basis of democracy is wrong, yes ?

  24. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Australia (Hobart)
    Posts
    3,196
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    421
    Likes (Received)
    2182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Do you think that people are that stupid and venal ? Obviously what we have cannot work. Just look at these numbers, they are even worse than I imagined. So, in say less than ten years there will be no companies and no work in the US.

    Do you think that if we tell people the facts, they are too retarded to deal with real solutions ?

    If the public cannot be trusted to make rational decisions when presented with the facts, then the whole basis of democracy is wrong, yes ?
    Look on the bright side.

    When the last company decides that paying insurance is going to bankrupt them, they too will outsource manufacturing/assembly to China or somewhere without the cost burden, pay off all their staff and become importers.

    The ex-employees will then be reliant on welfare and therefore qualify for whatever version of Medicare suits their circumstances.

    Voila - single payer health insurance. Problem solved.

    Pity about the collateral damage along the way though......

    PDW


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •