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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Do you think that people are that stupid and venal ? Obviously what we have cannot work. Just look at these numbers, they are even worse than I imagined. So, in say less than ten years there will be no companies and no work in the US.

    Do you think that if we tell people the facts, they are too retarded to deal with real solutions ?

    If the public cannot be trusted to make rational decisions when presented with the facts, then the whole basis of democracy is wrong, yes ?
    I don't want to sound negative but we do have a serious problem. Health care is only the tip of the iceberg.

    I don't think people are stupid or venal but they also are not going to bite the hand that feeds them. Add to the monthly checks that this group often gets free or subsidized health care that many with a full time job such as what Potter is paying can not or do not qualify for the subsidized of free health care, you have a situation in which you have to be a fool to accept a lower standard of living for having a job and trying to take care of yourself.

    At one time in the past we as a nation, as a whole, thought of ourselves as a single group even with all of our issues. Today, diversity is the new standard and we are basically fragmented into sub-cultural groups that get played against each other. Each group is special and deserves special perks.

    Having a single payer for health care seems to be one of the popular alternatives to our current situation which we all agree is unsustainable.

    I have great concern with this approach not logistically but in the politics of it.

    The issue with the IRS purposely slowing or denying certain political groups that were not favored by the party in power at the time their right to establish their right to collect monies for future campaigns is a very chilling issue. What troubles me more is how we as the general voting public reacted to the situation. Regardless of political party affiliation, we as a nation should have been in the streets with pitch forks and torches.

    Having the most powerful branch of the Federal Government bureaucracy pull this kind of thing off, have the people in charge of the department do this, testify in front of Congress and answer questions by pleading the 5th without repercussions or further investigation tells me a lot where we are as a society.

    The second great issue I see is that we once were a nation ruled by law. We seem to be currently choosing and picking what laws we are willing to enforce. The whole sanctuary city issue is a prime example. How is that it is acceptable to ignore laws that are on the books, obstruct other authorities from executing their legal responsibilities and as a nation be willing to accept this acceptable indicates to me that we are much further down the slide into a moral morass than we realize.

    I do not see this as a Republican or Democratic party problem. I see this as a philosophical problem.

    My fears are that if we adopt a single payer approach with our current acceptance of politicization of laws and bureaucracy that this will become the ultimate bureaucratic weapon of maintaining power.

    I probably have a jaded view of government seeing how Illinois government works but the problem is that this is exactly how the state works. Opposition positions from the group in charge are soundly punished and supporters rewarded.

    Benjamin Franklin summed our problem up pretty well.

    "When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.

    I'm afraid that we are or at lest very close to there. Unless we can wake up and understand that there is only us to take responsibility and fix the problem, then we are doomed.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    ...Healthcare for all might be cheaper for each individual if all contributed. As it is don't those that do pay (insurance etc.) also pay for those that pay nothing?....

    It's a bit more complicated than that. One of our local hospitals is a nonprofit "charity" hospital who get tax breaks in return for providing "indigent care", meaning the uninsured. So some reimbursement comes through local property tax abatement. Spread out locally, but not over all "those that do pay".

    And most health care charges are negotiable here in the USA. The uninsured are charged retail, while the insured have their insurance company on their side as expert negotiators and pay about half that. So the uninsured are charged about twice what insurance companies are. The initial charges are a beginning negotiating stance in a game that's not usually understood by the uninsured/underinsured, who are usually in over their heads and often get taken advantage of.

    The flip side, of course, is that the service (health care) is rendered before the bill arrives, so the collateral can just not pay, if they so choose, and there may not be any real consequences for nonpayment. (Debtor's prison has been outlawed here. )

    My wife and I were uninsured when she got cancer, and I received an education in how the uninsured are treated/billed. It's a whole other sideshow in the medical game, and distracts from actual health care delivery.

    Safe to say that a majority of both the insured and uninsured would like everyone to have insurance.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I said that years ago. Your system is unsustainable. It's going to fail, the only question is when.
    PDW
    We've been saying the same thing about our system in Canada for years, and our current gov is working harder than ever at getting us to that "when".


    Best thing US employers can do to get the citizenry to wake up, is drop covering their employees so they all start to understand and feel how the system really works(tough to do with gov workers who don't live in the real world sadly..).
    Maybe bump their pay a few dollars, their income tax and costs of living are quite low in the US anyhow so there should be $ to spare, let them go through the problem of finding their insurance that suits them. It might also motivate a few to improve their health, quit smoking, eat better, to maybe get a better deal.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Best thing US employers can do to get the citizenry to wake up, is drop covering their employees so they all start to understand and feel how the system really works(
    You know what ? that's probably a GREAT idea ! Take the amount you spent on health insurance last year, add it to the wage, and tell people to find their own insurance in the future.

    I bet there would be a really big scream that might be heard all the way to Washington

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    You know what ? that's probably a GREAT idea ! Take the amount you spent on health insurance last year, add it to the wage, and tell people to find their own insurance in the future.

    I bet there would be a really big scream that might be heard all the way to Washington
    The only scream that would be heard in DC in that scenario is how evil the business owners are for dropping everyone's health care coverage. DC would then blame everyone other than themselves for the problem................folks do need a good 'ol kick in the pants for a reality check though.................... To this day I still have friends and relatives that have ZERO and I mean ZERO clue of how much health insurance costs out on the open market. All they see is their take home pay on every paycheck and are completely oblivious.............

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  8. #66
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    Of course Ocare had the Cadillac tax to "help" with this but it was kicked down the road.

  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post

    Take the amount you spent on health insurance last year, add it to the wage, and tell people to find their own insurance in the future.
    Free market? That's crazy talk! There's no way something like that could work like it does in every single other industry all over the World.

    Three things that no one has mentioned so far that would have a huge impact on healthcare costs in the US:

    1. Opening the insurance market so you can purchase insurance "across state lines" - but why stop there? I believe one of our European colleagues posted earlier that he buys his insurance from a company that can sell to all of Europe, and probably a lot of other countries. Why can't we buy that insurance here? Why can't I buy my insurance from a company in New Jersey instead of New York? And why is this one of the very, very few industries regulated like this?

    2. Tort Reform AKA Malpractice Reform. Especially for Higher-Risk Disciplines (like neurology and surgeries) Medical Doctors can pay upwards of $300,000 per year for malpractice insurance, because there are essentially zero limits on damages they could have to pay, and the system for determining 'fault' is so opaque that the cases almost never go to trial - they just negotiate and pay it out of insurance. Why wouldn't you, when a loss (decided by a jury, who hate medical practitioners like the rest of Americans) can decide Mr. Doctor owes a family $250 Million dollars for letting their 97 year old Great-Grandmother die from an aneurysm...or from operating on their 97 year old Great-Grandmother to try to save her from an aneurysm. I'm not saying all medical 'malpractice' lawsuits are frivolous, but there are an awful lot of attorneys making a killing on them.

    3. Publishing/Advertising Costs. There was a hospital out in Utah (If I remember correctly) who decided they were going to put the cost of a bunch of typical surgeries at their hospital on their website. They were shocked when a couple of things happened, the first being that their expenses for the following year for those surgeries was drastically lower than previous years. The second was that two other regional hospitals did the same thing, and all 3 wound up doing more of the surgeries they were best at (because they could do them the most cost effectively) and all the hospitals, and all of their patients, won.

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  11. #68
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    Default Health insurance premiums

    Finally looked at my new rates. Wish I hadnt now a 63 % increase for me in MN. Myself 57 and my wife 58. 1700 to 2700 how is a small business owner suppose to make it? It used to be your house payment was your largest bill. Now your house and car payment are still smaller than than your heath coverage. To me I think this is the biggest thing hurting small businesses. Just think what we could do with the extra money if the rates were manageable. I am sure we all know those that don't do anything and have that free health card, no deductible. Pretty frustrating paying when most don't reach there deductible and have over 30,000 in premiums for the year. If anyone has found a way affodradable way please share.

  12. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabench View Post
    If anyone has found a way affodradable way please share.
    Put that premium money in the bank. Get something similar to this...we're on it. Health care sharing:

    3 Program Options - Liberty HealthShare

    If something goes wrong...sign up for ACA next year...but I trust these guys at least as much as an insurance company.

  13. #70
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    Hey, somebody has to pay for those 500-foot glass skyscrapers in downtown areas. It's not cheap for Liberty Mutual, Allstate, State Farm, and all the others to run those buildings, you know. Just Liberty Mutual alone has got to operate their big campus in Plano, TX, and their skyscraper in Boston, and they have the Safeco building in Seattle, and they are building that new skyscraper in Plano with 3 million square feet. It cost money to do that stuff, so get out your checkbook buddy.

  14. #71
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    Some countries have "free" healthcare, some don't. I know which I prefer.

    List of countries with universal health care - Wikipedia

    Health systems by country - Wikipedia

    Are any universal healthcare systmems actually run by a government? Funded yes, run by? - not really.

    Universal health care - Wikipedia

    Funding models

    Universal health care in most countries has been achieved by a mixed model of funding. General taxation revenue is the primary source of funding, but in many countries it is supplemented by specific levies (which may be charged to the individual and/or an employer) or with the option of private payments (by direct or optional insurance) for services beyond those covered by the public system. Almost all European systems are financed through a mix of public and private contributions. Most universal health care systems are funded primarily by tax revenue (like in Portugal, Spain, Denmark, and Sweden). Some nations, such as Germany and France and Japan employ a multipayer system in which health care is funded by private and public contributions. However, much of the non-government funding is by contributions by employers and employees to regulated non-profit sickness funds. Contributions are compulsory and defined according to law. A distinction is also made between municipal and national healthcare funding. For example, one model is that the bulk of the healthcare is funded by the municipality, speciality healthcare is provided and possibly funded by a larger entity, such as a municipal co-operation board or the state, and the medications are paid by a state agency.Universal health care systems are modestly redistributive. The progressivity of health care financing has limited implications for overall income inequality.


    Healthcare in Denmark - Wikipedia

    I will admit though that when I travel to countries that may have an infectious disease (malaria etc.) then I do have to pay out of pocket for medication or a shot. Not doing so is as stupid as not having a good travel insurance.

  15. #72
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    [QUOTE=Gordon B. Clarke;3090410]Some countries have "free" healthcare, some don't. I know which I prefer.

    List of countries with universal health care - Wikipedia

    Health systems by country - Wikipedia

    Are any universal healthcare systmems actually run by a government? Funded yes, run by? - not really.

    Really? Wrong!!!! Again.

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  17. #73
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    Manufacturing in America and Europe is the next one up Gordon.



    Though I certainly would agree that having unelected bureaucrats who are paid more than doctors and can't be fired running things isn't much better. I think the biggest problem with society today is not enough heads getting chopped for failure to perform on time and UNDER budget.

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  19. #74
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    I've posted this in another PM sub forum but it might be interesting to some.

    Make America great again


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