How do difficult materials affect your quoted price?

broke · Jan 20, 2017

This is meant to be more of a discussion than just a question, so lets hear it.

Most of my work is in Aluminum, Copper, and stainless in job shop quantities. I also see, on occasion, Titanium, Inconel, Monel, ect. I have the equipment to handle the added challenges of those materials, and have become pretty good at making a profit on those jobs.

Obviously there are a number of variables that will ultimately affect the price of the part.
-Material availability
-special tooling that will stand up to exotics
-complexity of the part
-tolerance
-experience

So I was quoting an Inconel part this morning and my price came in way under what I believe the market will bear. So I adjusted my price accordingly and expect to get the PO later today. With technology and specifically machine capabilities what they are, the run time differences on a part like I'm making would be about double if I was making the part out of mild steel or 303. With that being said, that's a relativity small part of the overall cost. The following list are variables that wont change based on material.

-programming time
-tool selection
-machine set up
-packaging/shipping

So, When you see materials that require special attention, how does it affect your price?

Joe Miranda · Jan 20, 2017

If I have tight tolerances in Inconel I double my price over what it would be out of carbon steel or stainless steel (304 is also double). Otherwise I am not interested.

broke · Jan 20, 2017

Joe Miranda said:
If I have tight tolerances in Inconel I double my price over what it would be out of carbon steel or stainless steel (304 is also double). Otherwise I am not interested.

I guess my question is not necessarily for Inconel or tight tolerance for that matter. More about how do you assign a value to an intangible variable? The PIA value.

Bobw · Jan 20, 2017

yoke said:
I guess my question is not necessarily for Inconel or tight tolerance for that matter. More about how do you assign a value to an intangible variable? The PIA value.

There is a way to assign a value.. How many cubic inches of inconel/Ti/13-8/sucksaloy can you move compared to
aluminum or mild steel? How many more tools is it going to eat.. There are even maintainability ratings of materials
that could be used...

In the real world, when you are just trying to pound out quotes... "perceived" value.. What the market will bear..

So I was quoting an Inconel part this morning and my price came in way under what I believe the market will bear. So I adjusted my price accordingly and expect to get the PO later today.

I do the same.. If its a big part, I sometimes will calculate out how many cubic inches of simple roughing I will
have to do.. I'll take an educated(from experience) guess at the tools I'll eat up... And then its perception...

If its a nasty material... Price goes way up... Castings.. Price goes up.. Any GD&T callouts on the print, price
goes up... Not that the callouts are anything difficult, and a lot of times makes life easier, but it makes the print
seem scarier than it actually is..

If the print is cluttered with dimensions, the price goes up..

If the part is a casting($*2), from a nasty material($*3), with a lot of dimensions/pages($*2), and some tight ones($x2), with GD&T
callouts($*2).... 10-20X the price if it came out of a block of aluminum.. May only take twice as long as if it is
made out of an aluminum block... But the perceived value is much higher.

strokersix · Jan 20, 2017

Bobw said:
Any GD&T callouts on the print, price
goes up... Not that the callouts are anything difficult, and a lot of times makes life easier, but it makes the print
seem scarier than it actually is..

with GD&T
callouts($*2)

Wow. I can understand this if the customer is using GD&T poorly, that's worse than no GD&T. But to make a blanket 2X price whenever you see GD&T? Really?

Bobw · Jan 20, 2017

strokersix said:
Wow. I can understand this if the customer is using GD&T poorly, that's worse than no GD&T. But to make a blanket 2X price whenever you see GD&T? Really?

No.. Not really 2X, but the GD&T blocks tend to make the print look "scary" to some... Therefore increasing
the "perceived value" of the part... Toss in some off angle views, and a bunch of section views and possibly a
J thread or 2 and the value goes up even more.

In reality.. I just make an educated guess based on experience. Analyzing how I make that "guess" and then trying to
put it into words is tough..

TeflonDave · Jan 20, 2017

Bobw said:
There is a way to assign a value.. How many cubic inches of inconel/Ti/13-8/sucksaloy can you move compared to
aluminum or mild steel? How many more tools is it going to eat.. There are even maintainability ratings of materials
that could be used...

In the real world, when you are just trying to pound out quotes... "perceived" value.. What the market will bear..

I do the same.. If its a big part, I sometimes will calculate out how many cubic inches of simple roughing I will
have to do.. I'll take an educated(from experience) guess at the tools I'll eat up... And then its perception...

If its a nasty material... Price goes way up... Castings.. Price goes up.. Any GD&T callouts on the print, price
goes up... Not that the callouts are anything difficult, and a lot of times makes life easier, but it makes the print
seem scarier than it actually is..

If the print is cluttered with dimensions, the price goes up..

If the part is a casting($*2), from a nasty material($*3), with a lot of dimensions/pages($*2), and some tight ones($x2), with GD&T
callouts($*2).... 10-20X the price if it came out of a block of aluminum.. May only take twice as long as if it is
made out of an aluminum block... But the perceived value is much higher.

When taking on special materials I like to do a little R&D. If you have past info on machine capability versus some specific materials and you can get a good idea on scrap ratio and or machine time. Something like an annealing cycle may help to keep machining time consistent. What material have you done that has the closest physical properties to this special material.? What machine is the best? Maintenance logs and any QC 6 sig records can help to see which of the "same" machines is best.

Also maintenance history of a certain machine. Ball screw comp checks and adjustments and such, couplings and belts etc...Coolant maintenance is a big point. Selecting tool holders and a spindle taper check & maintenance thereof helps.

Measuring tools and measuring process. I have set-up for final measurement size but I have also set-up for roughing dimensions, from a visual inspection to a rough measurement size as needed to avoid work hardening and softening.

Who's the man? Who gonna run this job? 1, 2 or 3 guys teaming to get this through the doors.

I take all these little points of info combine it with quote time & material, then take the print-out and ball it up and shoot it in the garbage can and say- " Now how much do I want for this job???

JFettig · Jan 20, 2017

Bobw said:
No.. Not really 2X, but the GD&T blocks tend to make the print look "scary" to some... Therefore increasing
the "perceived value" of the part... Toss in some off angle views, and a bunch of section views and possibly a
J thread or 2 and the value goes up even more.

In reality.. I just make an educated guess based on experience. Analyzing how I make that "guess" and then trying to
put it into words is tough..

If this was how people quoted me I'd tell them to F off. 99% of tolerances on my prints are GD&T. Engineers don't do it to make your life tough, its exactly the opposite, it both makes your life easier and it makes for a more functional part if engineered properly. Learn how to use GD&T the correct way so you can quote and make those parts without puckering your butthole.

Oldwrench · Jan 20, 2017

JFettig said:
If this was how people quoted me I'd tell them to F off. 99% of tolerances on my prints are GD&T. Engineers don't do it to make your life tough, its exactly the opposite, it both makes your life easier and it makes for a more functional part if engineered properly. Learn how to use GD&T the correct way so you can quote and make those parts without puckering your butthole.

The response to that attitude is the F off quote. You quote high enough to be certain you won't get the job because it looks like a PITA. Then when everybody else no-quotes it for the same reason you will make a lot of money. Note to designers: Want it be expensive? Simple--make it look difficult.

Philabuster · Jan 20, 2017

JFettig said:
If this was how people quoted me I'd tell them to F off. 99% of tolerances on my prints are GD&T.

I prefer to see GD&T on the print, but if I have to perform a FAIR on it (First Article Inspection Report), the price goes WAY up.

Bobw · Jan 20, 2017

JFettig said:
If this was how people quoted me I'd tell them to F off. 99% of tolerances on my prints are GD&T. Engineers don't do it to make your life tough, its exactly the opposite, it both makes your life easier and it makes for a more functional part if engineered properly. Learn how to use GD&T the correct way so you can quote and make those parts without puckering your butthole.

I understand how it works.. I like it, and I appreciate how it actually describes a functional part.

What I have noticed over the years is that there are a lot of people that DON'T understand it, and get nervous
and flustered when they see it.

Just for shits and giggles... I bet you would get lower quotes from more shops if you went with straight
± tolerances from the top left corner.. I know that doesn't describe a functional part, but it doesn't look
as intimidating, and the perceived value falls.

HuFlungDung · Jan 20, 2017

TeflonDave said:
When taking on special materials I like to do a little R&D. If you have past info on machine capability versus some specific materials and you can get a good idea on scrap ratio and or machine time. Something like an annealing cycle may help to keep machining time consistent. What material have you done that has the closest physical properties to this special material.? What machine is the best? Maintenance logs and any QC 6 sig records can help to see which of the "same" machines is best.

Also maintenance history of a certain machine. Ball screw comp checks and adjustments and such, couplings and belts etc...Coolant maintenance is a big point. Selecting tool holders and a spindle taper check & maintenance thereof helps.

Measuring tools and measuring process. I have set-up for final measurement size but I have also set-up for roughing dimensions, from a visual inspection to a rough measurement size as needed to avoid work hardening and softening.

Who's the man? Who gonna run this job? 1, 2 or 3 guys teaming to get this through the doors.

I take all these little points of info combine it with quote time & material, then take the print-out and ball it up and shoot it in the garbage can and say- " Now how much do I want for this job???

I love that description of the process

Having been in the biz for 40 years, I'm constantly amazed at how soon the end of the day comes. And I'm supposing I could have how much/many of these widgets done? Not gonna happen. Really, I'll probably get this many done and I'm happy at $600/day, so I guess they cost $XX.xx each.

Guest · Jan 20, 2017

Only been self employed 20 years and my system for quoting jobs is pretty simple when it comes to quoting jobs from materials with basic degrees of difficulty. It boils down to 3 things. Material overage needed, run time efficiency and perishable tooling needed. If the job is out of easy to machine plastic, aluminum or brass, I go 110% of material cost, 80% run time efficiency, and maybe a token charge for tooling. As the materials are more difficult to machine material cost multiplier goes up, run time efficiency goes down and tooling charges increase.

A.Delaney · Jan 20, 2017

I just quoted a job out of 303 stainless. The customers says. I'm not sure if 303 will work. I said. That's fine if you want 304 but the price will double. He says I think we should be fine with 303. There is 20 parts that need an 1.250" hole drilled through and it has 2, 1/4-20 threaded holes through to the bore. Drilling 304 with a High Speed drill has always been a pita. Manual lathe drilling with the tail stock. I would have to stop more often to sharpen drills. It would eat a few taps and my hand will be red and swollen from cranking the handle. I'll need some aleve to get through it. That's why I have to double the price.

Oldwrench · Jan 21, 2017

A.Delaney said:
...and my hand will be red and swollen from cranking the handle. I'll need some aleve to get through it. That's why I have to double the price.

And you can expect at least five posts telling you either (1) how much more money you'd make, or (2) how much lower you could quote, if only you were modern enough to run it on a $125,000 turning center with live tools...

ManualEd · Jan 21, 2017

Oldwrench said:
And you can expect at least five posts telling you either (1) how much more money you'd make, or (2) how much lower you could quote, if only you were modern enough to run it on a $125,000 turning center with live tools...

Then another few saying they could run it cheaper on an old paid for CNC, and few more saying they could do it cheaper on a manual, all it would cost is some time, a few drills and a swollen hand.

adamm · Jan 21, 2017

Bobw said:
What I have noticed over the years is that there are a lot of people that DON'T understand it, and get nervous
and flustered when they see it.

From engineering, to purchasing, to sales people, to shop floor people, to quality, there are lots who don't understand it. But they're pretty sure it is one of those ISO 9000 things, and therefore, it must be a pain in the ass, therefore it will cost a lot. I've dealt with a number of people who think that GD&T requires 100% inspection of all features that have GD&T symbols after every process on the parts. Every process, every feature. :wrong:

I fully agree it shouldn't cost more, but I also see that in the real world, this is a competitive game. When all your competitors are scared, it is an opportunity to make more money.

Orange Vise · Jan 22, 2017

yoke said:
The following list are variables that wont change based on material.

-programming time
-tool selection
-machine set up
-packaging/shipping

That may not hold true in some instances.

Let's say you make a part out of carbon steel and the roughing endmill will make 50 parts before requiring a change. You make the same part out of hardened alloy steel, stainless, or an exotic, and the number of parts per endmill drops to 20, 10, or whatever. Simple enough - just be more diligent in changing tools and add the cost of addition tools and time.

Things get more difficult when a tool won't last through a single part, requiring multiple roughers and finishers, or if operations that would otherwise work in common materials won't work in difficult materials, and you find yourself sending it out to EDM.

garyhlucas · Jan 22, 2017

As a designer I know just how easy it is to design an expensive part!
As for pricing. If you don't the job you are too high. If the customer smiles when they get the price you are too low. If they grumble about the price as they give you a PO you are likely on target.

jscpm · Jan 22, 2017

My philosophy is: charge for your area of expertise.

Whatever you are good at it, profit for it. Anything else, charge out at cost.

Customers aren't stupid. They look at your material costs. I always make sure my material costs are about 10% below what the average person would see on a quote. Steel XYZ sells for $11 per pound, I charge it out at $10 a pound. When a customer see this, they think "wow, this guy is fair." Trying to make money off material costs is stupid. I make money off the intangibles, the expertise.

How do difficult materials affect your quoted price?

Hot Rolled

Titanium

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Aluminum

Aluminum

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Guest

Guest

Aluminum

Titanium

Stainless

Cast Iron

Titanium

Stainless

Titanium

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