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How the H*** do you guys get work before the equipment is there?

JasonE

Plastic
Joined
Sep 20, 2017
K, I realize this may not get honest answers but I have to ask, we are currently buying equipment and tooling to "try" to get new and different work. I am constantly baffled with companies that say "we have a contract for this work, so we need to buy some machines, etc". Now, I realize if you already do that sort of work, but some lead on that they maybe make small Aluminum trinkets, then stumble into some nice, long run contract, without a clue how the work will get done.


It seems most places looking to have something made want to "know your capabilities". Uh, u want 50ft long shafts made, I can find a way, but I most certainly won't be buying 50ft lathes in hopes that the work comes!
 
Most of my customers pay me for what i can do, how i do it and with what is my problem!
 
There's a huge difference between an established company getting work for equipment they don't have and some start up dreamer trying to get work for equipment he doesn't have.

Many times you will be chatting with a customer and they will say something like "we're having a hard time finding someone to make XYZ parts". Now, a savvy business owner will know that "having trouble" means they can't get them as cheap as they want. In more rare cases, it means they can't get them as fast as they want or current quality is bad.

If the company has a good relationship with the customer, agreements can be made and machines purchased on a promise of work. It can work out for everyone.

However, it can also bite you in the ass. I know when I was employed that the company was asked to purchase more equipment to meet projected demand for their products. Equipment was purchased, but the work never came. You can't whine too much or they start to threaten the work you do have.


Now, I've read so many folks here talk about starting a machine shop from scratch and somehow getting work before buying equipment. These people are either dreaming, or they are playing a different game than I am. If you want to get started in this business, you need to buy some capability and be ready to use it when work does come.
 
Well, I guess I never know what these guys are really making or for how much. I know all our new customers demand to see the facility before even quoting work. Then we go through all the BS, get some decent parts to quote and get excited, then it all falls flat. We are just too high. Were doing some parts for a decade, always passed inspection, tricky parts out of plastic. Price of everything was creeping up, we requested to requote and explained why. Lost the parts and price was back at where we were when we started making them a decade ago.

Now when I quote parts, I look them over for 10min, throw a bid, and move on. I just don't have 5hrs to plan how to make parts the right way, only to get burned by a sweat shop.


You bet, I have read here where guys have these big jobs to do, but need help turning their machine on....

Did have a good friend that has money from his other business propped to buy a near new Makino HMC. He of course called me saying the owner said it is a song of a deal, and will provide enough work for the next 3yrs for that machine...... I made sure he backed well away from that! Before anything here, my friend doesn't even know what an end mill does! He was just hearing $signs. He wanted me to partner, but I did not like anything about that idea.
 
Yes, big difference between a large corp doing that and a small shop. We are a large corp, so we have contract in hand before any capital gets spent, with iron-clad penalties if they balk after capital is spent or if contracted volumes don't materialize. Doesn't do any good if customer goes belly up, but we are dealing with very large, global corps as customers so that risk is somewhat minimized. Basically, if they balk, they owe us what is spent on the project up to the date of official notice of cancellation. And yes, it has happened a few times and yes we got paid. BUT, we have a bevy of corporate lawyers at hand also, so it's a very different situation to a small shop.

However, you can protect yourself with a good contract even if you are a small shop and take on a job like this.

Most of these kind of deals are based on a proven track record of producing similar parts where you can provide capability and performance data. It pays to keep up with your performance metrics and have records of that. (On time delivery, quality, customer complaints, etc). This lets you show a prospective customer with some real numbers on paper as to your business abilities. Talking is only air. Hard numbers mean something and is a tangible asset to have.
 
It pays to keep up with your performance metrics and have records of that. (On time delivery, quality, customer complaints, etc). This lets you show a prospective customer with some real numbers on paper as to your business abilities. Talking is only air. Hard numbers mean something and is a tangible asset to have.

I know of many companies in Ontario (I find it difficult to believe the US is any different) who will provide those "records", documents and numbers without any merit whatsoever behind them. Just as there are customers (again, no shortage of them in south-western Ontario) that will provide "trade references" or banking information supposedly for credit purposes (go to this bank, speak with ONLY with this guy, he'll vouch for us:rolleyes5:).

Get a PO, write into the PO that at least material is paid in full prior to ordering any of it (ideally, 100% down for the entire job). The more small shops that do this, the better.
 
That mode of operation is backwards to me. I got machines first, then I went looking for work.
I had talked to potential customers, but took no orders until machines were installed, leveled and wired.
 
Sales oversells.
Sends order to shop.
"We can't make that"

Complains back to sales.

Sales (who could lose their nice bonus)
"Make it work".

Notice how the real "Magic makers" (the shop)
doesn't get any bonus ?
 
Don't forget about having a CMM and ISO because nobody can make good parts without that...
 
As a Applications Engineer for a machine tool company, I've seen many people get into sticky situations when they buy equipment based on a time sensitive contract.

A lot of things that can get sideways when buying a machine. Machine gets damaged in shipping, financing falls thru, utilities or location of installation is below required specs, installation date gets delayed, etc.

Believe it or not many times the owner has vastly under estimated what it takes to get the machine making parts and is surprised the kid that sweeps the floor for $10hr can't make it produce. ( When the owner is an actual machinist or has dirt under his nails this never happens btw).

I'm all about getting it done and not letting an opportunity pass me by, but it's good to be aware that there are many variables to buying equipment many that are out of your control.
 
Generally, be aware of what you are good at. I, for instance,do not go looking for big thousand pound anchors to machine.

Get the type of work you prefer, whether it be anchors or mosquito wheelchair parts. When you get overwhelmed with volume, farm out the pieces you can afford to.

When you are farming out enough work to buy a machine, buy a machine
 
I think we just have a unique skill to attract low pay parts. Go through the hassle of talking, etc, then show us what they need. Need 5 parts that you can make on a bridgeport..... We don't even quote em. Seems wrong to insult with CNC pricing so we just tell them it is a manual part, and we don't have those. I know some probably think that is the wrong route to take but we will literally lose money doing them and in our experience, our customers just use us until we price something with good profit, and they move to someone else.

Leaches really.
 
You don't seriously have no manual machines do you? If so how do you survive???? A lot of potential customers will ask for your capabilities because they want to be able to send work you have the equipment for. The thought being that if it's a good fit you might be able to price it better and there is more security that what you make will be right. I wouldn't send a 50ft shaft quote to you if you didn't have the equipment to do it there's a lot of risk in that.

As for equipment why would you buy something with the hopes that there will be work for it. Honestly upon reading you last post again sounds like you need new customers or find your niche and do it really well. If you attract low paying work then do the work faster or for less overhead and build up from there.
 
Disagree.
They are NOT leaches.
They are optimizing their business .. as You do.

And in general, ...
if the customers tend to find others to do their work ... and they keep in business .. your services are inefficient for that market.

But I do understand a part of what You say .. and I do agree with a part of it.

Many times, customers will imply ongoing future business, of much more scope, if You can only help them with this one bit.
And as You seemed to say, they do the 5 parts with You, and then go for the 10.000 parts with someone else.

I had huge success with this, on both sides, for many years.
By looking at first principals.
Look prospective current buyer in the eye. Must be owner/manager/decider.

"Listen, I *will* do this to You for a loss - for me".
*Now* - I will also ask that You sign a MOA/comfort letter/preferred supplier/commitment to buy XXX similar widgets from me, for 5 years or 10M pieces.
As You said You would, now, to get this cheap price.
And likewise when You go from 10.000 / set to 100.000 / set "I will" adjust the pricing to be in-line, and fair.

You are perfectly right that You lose money on the 5 piece jobs.
But You fail to see that 1/20 of those will become major good customers in the future, of great loyalty, and great profitability, IF and only IF YOU can manage it well in communication.
You might "lose" 500$ marginal costs x 19 = 9500$ per year.
But You would most likely gain 2-3M$ gross margin from the 1/20 who succeeds and sticks with You.


I think we just have a unique skill to attract low pay parts. .. Need 5 parts that you can make on a bridgeport..... We don't even quote em.

I know some probably think that is the wrong route to take but we will literally lose money doing them and in our experience, our customers just use us until we price something with good profit, and they move to someone else.

Leaches really.
 
You don't seriously have no manual machines do you? If so how do you survive????

I have one small engine lathe and a drill press. That's the extent of the manual equipment here. I don't want to do manual machining. There's a dozen shop that will fight over that crap.
 
I have one small engine lathe and a drill press. That's the extent of the manual equipment here. I don't want to do manual machining. There's a dozen shop that will fight over that crap.

I thought you did machine repair? Anywho... I agree it's hard to get by without manual equipment. Who wants to setup "the machine" for a 2nd op c'bore/chamfer?? Drill press and go at it while the machine is running...
 








 
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