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How much power do I want in my shop... oh, also, I'm getting a new shop!

Parkerbender

Stainless
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Location
Kansas City Mo, USA
Okay guys, so. Getting a new shop, moving to KC... This one is actually going to be mine, and boy is it rough... ha. Anwyay, so while it has been sitting empty some nice young people broke in and removed every ounce of copper from the place, hvac motors, wires, even the buss bars from the disconnects and things. They did leave all the light fixtures and all of the conduit though, bonus!

So.

I am starting from scratch, what do I want? I am going to, or at least try my absolute dambdest, to have KCPL just pull power to a disconnect and then I will go from there, and have them come check it when I am done as that I worked for an electrician for a while, I have a NEC codebook and hell, all the conduit is even there, so the only things I have to actually do from scratch is my few machines. So. I currently have a Hurco TMX8MYS lathe, biggest motor ~28KVA, 53KVA max, VM20 with 15KVA Biggest Motor, 20KVA Max, Mazak HTC400 with 20 and 30KVA Respectively. I currently have a 5 horse compressor, 200 amp welder, shitty bandsaws, big shaker, starting with 5 tons of A/C but will probably need more, blah blah blah... But the building is 16,300 square feet.

I like auctions.

So. What does a guy plan for? I mean, I have a big trailer and forklift, who knows if I drag a laser home in a few months? I feel like both I don't want to spend a kajillion dollars on an electrical service, but also I would prefer to only do it once. I have a whole pile of transformers because... I like auctions, so I am planning on just having them pull 480 in and I will handle it from there and not have a bunch of different meters. What do you guys have? In the near future I really want a cheap crappy screw machine for these little bushings I keep tying up my lathe with, and I have very much thought about trying to do some of my own anodize... I mean does a guy try to get 6 or 800 amps, or is that way overkill and nobody will ever need more than 1024k... err... 400 amps?

Thoughts, feelings, opinions?

-Parker
 
If scrappers hit you once they will be back to take the new copper. You need a security system to keep the thieves at bay. it needs battery backup and cell phone output if phone line is cut.
I do not understand why copper theft is not a federal crime like railroad stuff is. If the Federal courts just shut down a few scrap yards for interfering with interstate power transmission the thefts problems would end fast. Ever notice the scrap yards do not take railroad scrap without paperwork?
Bil lD
 
The building set empty for a while, I am not in yet, closing on the 14th hopefully. I will figure out a way to keep them out, whatever it might be... Definitely at least cameras. In any case, thanks for the concern, but anyone have an opinion about the power question? Also, do scrapyards in your neck of the woods take copper without fingerprints and a copy of an ID? Here they are sticklers on that...
 
I had long-standing dealings with the two yards local to me, and for both I had to provide bona fides to get started. No additional ID needed for follow-on visits. I keep a close eye on my building, and have cameras and other security here. Hope I don't need to use them...

Good luck with the new shop - 16K sf is a lot of space!
 
First, the wiring and circuit size to each machine is easy. Lighting, heating and AC is also easy. Your total load is not easy, because you must calculate for the maximum simultaneous load. To know that, you need to provide the number of people that will be running your machines. A one man shop with a 480 volt supply can get by quite nicely with a 32 amp service (That's 32 amps per phase). If you have 10 people, 200 amp service would be appropriate.
 
Hi Steve,
I am not certain that 32 amps would run even my lathe at 53KVA? A few years ago I had 3-4 people, though now I mostly work by myself but would plan on having more employees again in the future. As that I am purchasing this building I am not really wanting to size my electrical demand for what I need this fall, but instead what is realistic for me to want in the future. I regularly have two or all three of my machines running at the same time and am using the bandsaw or possibly even welding as well (I have a barfeeder on my lathe, a pallet changer on my horizontal machining center, and the vmc also runs on its own). Additionally the air compressor might start or the air conditioner or vibratory finisher may be running. As best I can figure the minimum that I would want would be 250-300 amps not allowing for any growth in the shop of which my current equipment will fill probably 25% of my floor space, but that size of service is not as common as sizes in 200 amp increments.
 
We have 1200 amps of 480 and honestly I wish it was more. That building is 36,000 square feet.

Don't shortchange yourself, power is something you want to do once. At a very minimum I would want 400A of 480 in a building that size. Stuff adds up fast.
 
Thanks 'tose,
Are you guys mostly mills and lathes, or do you have some lasers? Welders? Anodize? What are your bigger power sucks?

Sorry for all the questions, trying to decision make in the next couple days and get the power company scheduled... My brain is fuzz.
;-)
 
From experience with people here in NJ getting buildings. The power company will try to limit what you get based on your size because they want to upgrade you later. Push for more than you need so you can settle for a good amount in the end.

The amount of power is based off of what you need though. Will you run the 200 amp welder maxed with 3 cncs running, and some giant microwave all at the same time... Even if that answer is yes once, you need that much power at that time.

Sent from my 2PS64 using Tapatalk
 
Now to date I have only gone through the whole new supply thing on a 2 lot domestic subdivision, but the first thing I did is ask a local sparky what he recons the maximum amps I could get.

I would feed em a bit of bs and say you have more equipment that sucks large current than you do. As has already been said, its a job you only wanna do once. You don't wanna be running at max amps for the supply they have provided you, especially if you wind up running more gear. Didn't you know that spare floor space is a magnet for extra equipment :D

My biggest issue here in the shop is just that, I'm running at the limit of my supply. You can hear my comp and other machines bog down when a few things are running together.
 
You will have to negotiate with the power company. They may have a minimum usage for larger services, as they have to supply adequately sized pole pigs that are sucking up their juice with no return until it makes it to the meter.

On 480, just think of 1 amp per horsepower, its not that good but it makes it easy figuring. How large of a service entrance do you wish to buy?

An older shop I worked at had two 50 taper horizontals, a 50 taper vertical, and two 16 x 40 cnc lathes on a 200A 240V service. We ran out of power when we added the second cnc lathe and upgraded the entire shop to 1200A buss type service entrance at 240V.
 
I have a 15,000 square foot building, full of conventional and CNC machines, 4 EDM, fully air conditioned, 10 employees, and put in a 1,200 amp 208 volt service 21 years ago. I am almost at my limit, both space and electrical service.
 
I put in 400A (240V) long ago thinking it was plenty. My biggest draw at the time was a 250A for a welder. Now I have one lathe that draws 200A by itself, and if I turned all the machines on at once I'd need 1200A in a 5000 sq ft workspace. I think you'll need somewhere between 100A and 250A (240V) per employee for conventional CNC machine tools, I have no experience with anodizing, and welding is it's own calculation. 100 to 250 is a broad range, so you have to dreamwheel what you could be doing in 10 years. I'm planning on adding a second 400A service sometime in the near future, wish now I had gone bigger to start as most everyone does. 400A at 480V is a good minimum, if you can spend more, get as much as you can afford, because it will someday be too little.
 
Also, do scrapyards in your neck of the woods take copper without fingerprints and a copy of an ID? Here they are sticklers on that...

The MO around here goes like this. The scumbags will hit on a three day weekend, and haul the shit out of state. By the time anyone notices the stuff is missing on Tuesday morning, it's already been melted down somewhere in Arizona.
 
Amperage and computer memory are like sex; you never can have too much. I believe i would shoot for 800 amps 480v. minimum.

I was in neighbors shop wiring the CNC plasma, former sewer pipe vitreous coating shop (lot's of big ovens)

One breaker was 800 amps at 440vac....

I think the new owner is probably paying for too much service, IIRC there are (2) 4meg pad mounts out front,
the idling current might be costing him.
 
We have 1200 amps of 480 and honestly I wish it was more. That building is 36,000 square feet.

Don't shortchange yourself, power is something you want to do once. At a very minimum I would want 400A of 480 in a building that size. Stuff adds up fast.


Truth! We have 800A of 480 in 15,000 square feet and if I were to put in induction heat treating we'd be all of a sudden maxed out. You can never have enough power.
 
I have a 5 gallon anodizing line and its calculated max draw is approximately 100amps...240V 1ph.

Most of the amps consumed in an anodizing line are caused by the resistive loads from the heating elements. The second largest consumer is the chiller for the electrolyte tank. If all my heaters hit at the same time it is a 72amp draw. I use a 1hp chiller to cool the tank while anodizing 144 square inches of aluminum and it barely keeps up with a .5°F rise over the run.

Goes through the roof from there.

FWIW-You better have a damn good reason to want to get into anodizing other than just having fun. So much at risk with all the chemicals and proper disposal even containment if bad things happen. I'd pay dearly to find a good anodizer so I didn't have to do the work myself.
 
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Also, do scrapyards in your neck of the woods take copper without fingerprints and a copy of an ID? Here they are sticklers on that...

They're scrap yards. They'd trade their mother for a sack of copper. Most, not all, are a disreputable lot at best. I remember a few years ago where they caught a scrap yard taking stolen bronze grave site urns used for flowers.
 








 
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