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ISO 9001 Questions for Small Shop

munruh

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Location
Kansas
We are feeling just a bit of pressure for ISO 9001 certification in our job shop. One of our customers may require it in 2017. We had meeting with a potential customer and they asked if we are. I know the answer they wanted to hear was "yes". How does a small job shop get ISO 9001 compliant? Where do we start? I would like to at least check into it. Thanks!
 
As long as you have your checkbook handy, it's not that hard. You will need a consultant. There is so much BS involved, you will loose your mind trying to go it alone.
Biggest problem shops have is, once they get certified, they go back to doing things "The Old Way" and then they loose their cert on their first performance audit. Keep it simple, say what you're going to do, and then do it.
 
As long as you have your checkbook handy, it's not that hard. You will need a consultant. There is so much BS involved, you will loose your mind trying to go it alone.
Biggest problem shops have is, once they get certified, they go back to doing things "The Old Way" and then they loose their cert on their first performance audit. Keep it simple, say what you're going to do, and then do it.

Any idea where I find a consultant? Has anyone been through this in the last couple of years?
 
I did AS9100 2 years ago. I interviewed/got quotes from a number of consultants. Pricing varied wildly; some of them clearly out of line for a business of my size. I had one consultant want three days for the internal audit, which we usually finish in about 4-6 hours before we run out of things to talk about.

I ended up going with my state's MEP (manufacturing extension partnership). Made the process much easier and less expensive.
 
This needs a cost rationalization on it just like anything else (i.e. like buying a fancy new CNC). I don't care what anyone says, this will raise the overhead costs. So the questions become this:

1. Do you have the work culture to properly implement and sustain this effort? Forms, procedures, manuals, etc. will need to be created, revised and, most importantly, used. Tools need annual certification. Think of past efforts that may have been similar and ask yourself "Were we successful in implementing that?". Might have been a safety or improvement committee, new ERP system, etc. If you fail at those kinds of efforts, well, good luck with ISO!
2. Will the efforts bring you a reward? So you get your shingle to hang in the receptionist area and display on your website, will it bring in sufficient business to pay for it and then some? That's a tough call.

Lastly, if you can't stand working with consultants, you're in for a really fun trip. We are still bumping along this road. We tried to get ISO "compliant" (i.e. no certificate but in theory you meet the requirements) but even that was a major chore and the customer who wanted it had a failed product and went away. It rears its ugly head on occasion but thankfully has not been forced upon us yet (even though some customer literature says we are supposed to have it).

The Dude
 
Some places that "require" iso will let you go* without it, if you can prove you are working on it. Like thedude said, if you have one or two customers wanting it, is it going to pay?

Maybe you can do the research, start documenting some things, and show it to them as "proof" of you being in the process of getting certified... no real money out of your pocket, and you can suss out if the business they bring is worth it?

* I mean let you do the work their iso work, while trying to get your certification
 
Any idea where I find a consultant? Has anyone been through this in the last couple of years?

As DanielG suggested, contact your Kansas MEP and start there. I worked in the MEP system for about 14 years. The MEP system, in theory anyway, is a "franchise" where each state would offer equal services at the same cost but in reality it's quite different state-to-state. In some states you'll get someone directly and in others it would be a 3rd party. Doesn't hurt to start there and they may even have some grant money (I hate grants but think of it as a way to get some of your tax $ back).

If that doesn't work see if there is a local chapter of ASQ (American Society of Quality).

The Dude
 
The whole ISO 9001/ TS-16949, WCM things must be so confusing to a small job if you never worked inside them.
Even those that have worked in shops using it often see it a "Document what you do, Do what you documented" deal.

Has anyone ever found a web source that leads one through and explains this in plain ole straight talk that makes sense to a small startup shop?
Sort of why would one want to do this outside of the "customer wants me to".
A site not trying so much to sell something but more trying to make sense of why it maybe a good idea and ways to get there.
Not aimed at "quality professionals" but normal people.

I can't judge such things as I started in the very early 80's building the varying standards and all the buzzwords make sense to me.
It must seem like a endless jungle and a paperwork nightmare walking into it now.
The first step is maybe a quality manual but why would you need a manual if you make quality parts? Every machinist can read a print and check his/her work.

I was a huge fan in the 80s. The 90s brought about one set of rules which should have helped.
Now people just buy the plaque and number and perhaps it is so contaminated that it has become useless and needs to go away.
Once upon a time you evaluated vendors by visiting their shops, talking to people, and peeking under the covers.
Perhaps a good idea gone mad but one must do as the customer demands.
 
The thing to always keep in mind as you go through the process is that ISO9001 doesn't have to be complicated. There are very few actual requirements for processes. Big companies with huge staffs can get complicated, but you don't have to.

The most important decision you will make is when you choose your registrar/auditor. If you get someone who is used to dealing with big companies, they tend to take a big-company approach and want complexity. Someone who is more used to small companies will focus on what is actually necessary. I went with ASR as my registrar, and they've been great. In fact, during my stage 1 audit, the auditor actually recommended a bunch of things to make my QMS simpler and easier to run.

Another piece of advice is to not let your consultant rope you into an someone else's system. A good consultant will have examples/boilerplate processes, but don't always use them. Do things in a way that works and that you will follow.

As a job shop, you will probably be able to take an exception to the entire design and development process. With very few exceptions, the things you need to do to be ISO9001 compliant are things you should be doing anyways, such as having procedures for dispositioning failed product, calibrating your tools, etc.
 
You can as well say: We are not ISO something certified and for the better. We are honest and will prove it any time.

I have had bad experiences with ISO 9001 certification at several places that I was hired by. It was written black on white on movable walls on machine floors that the collaborators were encouraged by management to bring in ideas for improvement, enhancement but the contrary was the case. I made my suggestions and what was the reaction? You are not cooperative and blabla.

It’s a management circus show, it’s got almost nothing to do with genuine work. I mean, everyone has a contract, what is it management is afraid of that could happen? Workers suddenly see too deeply into a firm’s structure?

The rest like measuring instrument calibration and procedures repeatability and whatnot is foolish. Incoming stuff correctly examined, you have a paper proof in the office. I have lived imcompetence with an input examiner, the papers were worthless. Me as an outputter had to fill in papers, too. Difference was, I knew what went wrong in the first place, round bars were not well round. Management wouldn’t close the circuit.

Quality in Japan: They have the thoroughest input examination. Output cannot help but be fine. Typical example is Fujifilm.
 
The thing to always keep in mind as you go through the process is that ISO9001 doesn't have to be complicated. There are very few actual requirements for processes. Big companies with huge staffs can get complicated, but you don't have to.

No way I see this as "not complicated" from a small shop point of view.
Bob
 
Here's my three realities that I have developed from personal experience with these "systems":
1. It's one of the highest "barriers to entry" for small shops to expand their markets into things like medical, aerospace, etc..
2. There is virtually no association between actual part quality and whatever kind of system you have received certification for (i.e. don't confuse a quality management system with actual part quality).
3. It's mostly a way for consultants to make money.

What I find absolutely ironic is that all of the basic "features and functions" of a good QMS could be standardized. Customers want a way to reject a part and be assured you've taken corrective action, everyone needs a way to quarantine bad material to make sure it doesn't find is way into finished goods, make sure people know how to read gauges and that those gauges are accurate. That and a few other bells and whistles. Why not just create a few standardized forms and procedures that everyone could use? Well, the consultants (and ISO) couldn't make their money then! :bawling:

The Dude
 
Here's my three realities that I have developed from personal experience with these "systems":
1. It's one of the highest "barriers to entry" for small shops to expand their markets into things like medical, aerospace, etc..
2. There is virtually no association between actual part quality and whatever kind of system you have received certification for (i.e. don't confuse a quality management system with actual part quality).
3. It's mostly a way for consultants to make money.


What I find absolutely ironic is that all of the basic "features and functions" of a good QMS could be standardized. Customers want a way to reject a part and be assured you've taken corrective action, everyone needs a way to quarantine bad material to make sure it doesn't find is way into finished goods, make sure people know how to read gauges and that those gauges are accurate. That and a few other bells and whistles. Why not just create a few standardized forms and procedures that everyone could use? Well, the consultants (and ISO) couldn't make their money then! :bawling:

The Dude

Can't agree more, from what I have seen. Not to say it does not help some places/companies. I heard a story about how we give out "awards" for supplier of the year and blah blah. A one time winner was a machine shop. Know why? In a nut shell, all their PAPERWORK was good and deliveries were on time. Like #2 above, nothing to do with actual quality of the parts.
 
I appreciate all the replies. I am going to check into it some more and see what it would take for us. Feel free to keep contributing.
 
As long as you have your checkbook handy, it's not that hard. You will need a consultant. There is so much BS involved, you will loose your mind trying to go it alone.
Biggest problem shops have is, once they get certified, they go back to doing things "The Old Way" and then they loose their cert on their first performance audit. Keep it simple, say what you're going to do, and then do it.
Spoken with true ignorance here...
 
Most of what is in ISO SHOULD be part of your business already, you are probably just not keeping some of the records.

You should implement the system yourself if you use some shitty consultant they are going to fuck it up. The only stuff you HAVE to do in iso has the word Shall in front of it.

I would buy the standard ASAP, read through it at least once, and then ask questions. Then find someone else quality manual online, copy paste it into word, and change it to meet your application. You can take some exceptions, like to design and to a few other portions possibly.
 
Most of what is in ISO SHOULD be part of your business already, you are probably just not keeping some of the records.

You should implement the system yourself if you use some shitty consultant they are going to fuck it up. The only stuff you HAVE to do in iso has the word Shall in front of it.

I would buy the standard ASAP, read through it at least once, and then ask questions. Then find someone else quality manual online, copy paste it into word, and change it to meet your application. You can take some exceptions, like to design and to a few other portions possibly.

Great advise from a mindless idiot.
 
If this is the only customer doing this the OP can do similar to what CarbideBob mentioned earlier “Once upon a time you evaluated vendors by visiting their shops, talking to people, and peeking under the covers”.

It’s a bit more than that as → the ISO buyer has to develop the requirements for you and “they audit you by signed form, or in person – or hire an outside agent to do so”. This then makes them tidy. I’ve worked both ways in the past but haven’t had an audit in more than a decade. I still keep to the procedures, tick off the paperwork (pretty thin really).

I’m a one man OP so “checking the work by another” thing has to be done by a redundant system (I do anyway). If the buyer really understood what going 9001 (benefit vs the part price) they would have imposed this solution from the git-go. Big yellow & green plus big railroad do this when it’s the best way for them.

I agree about the keep it simple & “say what you’ll do & then do what you said”.

Good luck,
Matt
 








 
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