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Liabilities for a Job shop/welding

VeeBlock

Plastic
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Location
Northwestern USA
The shop I work at is a job shop, primarily. However we do have a very talented welder on staff who does anything from making welds on our production parts to welding walk-in work. The walk-in parts are usually one-offs that require welding to repair or modify something at the customer's request and design. The variety of design and metals in this type of work is vast (anything from welding fishing rod holders to welding trailer frames). The welder is very skilled at everything we've asked of him but he is very concerned at times with the liability ramifications of some of the work we do. His welds are high quality, but he keeps insisting that we need customers to sign waiver forms on much of the repair work we do - He's certain we're gonna get sued.
This hasn't been a concern for past welders we've had on staff or previous department managers, who are still in the company. I think that many times he's just being difficult and/or paranoid but at other times the liability concern is a legitimate argument.

I would like to know how your shop approaches the liability issue in repair/modification work for "walk-in" customers. What criteria for design and part type/weld type do you establish that sets the boundary for what work you take on vs. what work you won't touch? Do you have customers sign a waiver? What kind of "liability waiver" is appropriate for a job shop/weld repair?
 
From a liability standpoint, the weldor is is in the clear. It is the company's job to make sure those liabilities are covered. But, having said that, I have never heard of an instant where the customer came back and sued. Sometime they might come back because they were not satisfied with the work and the part failed (again) but I can say I have never had that happen.

There is nothing here to worry about. You might mention it to the owners/management but that is all you can do. You just then let it alone.
 
Customers can sue whoever they want. They will sue the company and they may try to sue the welder if they believe it's negligence. A waiver will due absolutely nothing in protecting you. In today's day and age, so much business is lost because people are terrified of getting sued. You can get sued for refusing to work on someones project. You can get sued for anything! Obviously use your brain. Don't make a bracket so some guy can mount a Western plow to his Honda Civic. Though I will say, make sure your insurance company knows this is happening. If someone sues because they're trailer broke after you welded it, and your insurance company says you were only covered for machining and manufacturing, not misc. welding, you're screwed. Not only will the customer sue you, your insurance company will also sue you for insurance fraud.
 
In so many cases the Journeyman rules out in the shop..Nobody can make all perfect with walk in work.
The waver a simple form letter "We will use our best methods, resources, materials and techniques but can not guarantee a job not approved by a manufacturing engineer.”

Welding a truck frame is a no no..but many do so..best to use similar thickness and patch with a moon or off/odd shape that has no straight line that would aid a crack. some may cover the weld with an asbestos blanket to cool slow....

In court.. "should have known better" could be an argument.. so a really dumb repair should be refused.

My buddy Ray said if you intend to buy a Corvert first put it on a rack and tap,tap tap the frame to see it is not a patch-up
 
i had a friend bring a back hoe to my house to repair out rigger foot. i tell him probably ductile iron and needs preheat and use nickel rod. i also say it broke once it can break again and sometimes castings cannot be welded stronger than original.
.
then we see the signs riveted on side of back hoe "ductile iron do not weld" i say no charge for weld as it probably will not hold. he already got $100 from his boss to have it welded. still thats the stuff of later arguements
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like when drawing shows 3/4-10 studs welded with 1/8 welds. later welds break as they are just too small on drawing. again welder can get blamed
 
Michiganbuck wrote: "Welding a truck frame is a no no..but many do so..."
The Ford chassis upfitter's manual shows factory-spec methods for stretching the frame either between the axles, or aft of them... This is for E450s used in ambulances, RVs, etc. I know I've seen 'no weld' signs on some semi tractor flanges, but ??
Is it because semi tractor flanges/frames are hardened?

Chip
 
He is right but you can play the odds and hope for the best.
How is your insurance coverage on such if someone looses a finger or a life?
Do you really know?
Few will get hit and many play fast and loose with no problems ever.
All good, sort of the reverse of buying a lottery ticket.
Bob
 
Michiganbuck wrote: "Welding a truck frame is a no no..but many do so..."
The Ford chassis upfitter's manual shows factory-spec methods for stretching the frame either between the axles, or aft of them... This is for E450s used in ambulances, RVs, etc. I know I've seen 'no weld' signs on some semi tractor flanges, but ??
Is it because semi tractor flanges/frames are hardened?

Chip

Can be but its oftern more about being high tensile materials. Lots of the common sheet goods made in high tensile materials are not hardened like us machinists are use to as that involves expensive alloying elements + expensive heat treatment.

Most higher tensile sheets are that way due to how and at what temperatures there are rolled at at the mill when the sheets made not alloying elements. Cold work these and you have no problem, single weld and the metal around thats now turned to something with the structural tensile strength of cheese. So that frame prior to the weld could easily be 4-5x stronger than it now is regardless of your welding rod choice or technique. On something like a truck frame designed around minimal weight - max strength that loss may well result in it not being strong enough for normal operation.

Equally its almost always worth adding any weld repair for something that’s suffered a fatigue failure won't last. The metal around it will fail. Now a weld repair for a part thats cracked along a shitty weld, yeah that will be a long lasting fix but a weld on a fatigue crack mid way along a excavator arm is like putting a band aid on a broken leg, even if you do a full penetration weld, theres normally enough fatigued metal either side it will just fail there in short order. Oftern the weld will focus the stress to a new spot and cause it to fail sooner too.
 
I've done some weld repairs here, and have also turned away a few welding jobs.

If you look at the function of each job and use common sense, everything will probably be fine.

The ones I turned away were ones I considered to be un safe and let the person know it was un safe and why.

If they chose not to listen and have someone else do it for them, that's their business.
 
Michiganbuck wrote: "Welding a truck frame is a no no..but many do so..."
The Ford chassis upfitter's manual shows factory-spec methods for stretching the frame either between the axles, or aft of them... This is for E450s used in ambulances, RVs, etc. I know I've seen 'no weld' signs on some semi tractor flanges, but ??
Is it because semi tractor flanges/frames are hardened?

Chip

cause high strength, heat treated steel looses tensile strength from the heat of welding
 
The welder is an employee. He's in the clear.................

But all I know is my business insurance would sky rocket if they new I was doing fixit/repair work for the general public. They would probably drop me. Insurance companies hate anything to do with public "walk ins" for fixit jobs. Just too much liablity ranging from them slipping and falling on your front step to the repair going wrong and someone ends up hurt. And I hate them too. They want it cheap, fast, and cheap. Did I mention cheap? I usually chase them out of the shop with the broom. Or if they are really pesky, the tip of my boot.
 
The welder is an employee. He's in the clear.................

Is he?

If your welder is certified in a specific area and that is the area he was employed I'd think he'd have some pooh flung upon him when that proverbial pooh hits the fan.



I got away from the walk in repair/service work for that reason. First it is usually someone too cheap to buy a new Home Cheapo lawn mower replacement part. They don't get why I wouldn't even consider welding the Blade hub...even IF they were willing to pay for it.

Had a customer begging me to weld up his broken crane hook. He promised cash at higher rate, he'd sign any waiver I could come up with and promised he wouldn't use to swing loads overhead. I told him not even a possibility, I was sorry, but no way way I doing that. I was figuring he already didn't follow the safety ratings as he broke the hook in the first place.
 
Is he?

If your welder is certified in a specific area and that is the area he was employed I'd think he'd have some pooh flung upon him when that proverbial pooh hits the fan.

Nope, lawyers always go for the deep pockets (insurance company, business etc.). How many welders do you know that a lot of spare cash laying around or have a stack of assets?

The welder is in the clear with no problems. Yes I know, lawyers can sue anybody but the welder himself would be the last person way down the list.
 
I have a neighbor that is a welder for a large local company.
He welds stuff in his home shop that I wouldn't even look at.
He tells everyone "I don't have insurance so they can't sue me".
Bull crap!! He is living in his grandmothers huge old house with a quite a bit of land.
They can take that and anything else he owns.

When I took out insurance, none of the companies would even talk to me.
I found one and told him that I knew there are things things to stay away from.
Trailer hitches, trailers, car frames, wheels, brakes, suspension parts, lawnmowers, log splitters, motorcycles, and guns.
He wrote me up right away.

I have people calling me all the time about gun parts, threading barrels and making silencers.
I always tell them don't even bring a gun to my shop.
I love guns, but I won't touch someone elses.
 
I have a neighbor that is a welder for a large local company.
He welds stuff in his home shop that I wouldn't even look at.
He tells everyone "I don't have insurance so they can't sue me".
Bull crap!! He is living in his grandmothers huge old house with a quite a bit of land.
They can take that and anything else he owns.

You've described maybe 150 grand in assets. Assuming he's not mortgaged to the hilt.

No lawyer around is going to go pro-bono paid only on win for part of 150 grand in assets. In order to win a welding case, you'd have to show negligence, which means you'd have to hire a PE, a welding instructor, a metallurgist, etc to point out that the welder in question KNEW he was doing something wrong, and how it should have been done.

Even in the case of an insurance company sueing to mitigate their losses, I imagine they'd probably just pay out and write it off without deep pockets to chase.

Engineering failure cases are not cheap cases.
 
To the OP...if you bought your insurance, and aren't aware of what you are or are not allowed to weld on, your welder is likely right and you should review your liabilities.

Policies get very specific.
 
You've described maybe 150 grand in assets. Assuming he's not mortgaged to the hilt.

No lawyer around is going to go pro-bono paid only on win for part of 150 grand in assets. In order to win a welding case, you'd have to show negligence, which means you'd have to hire a PE, a welding instructor, a metallurgist, etc to point out that the welder in question KNEW he was doing something wrong, and how it should have been done.

Even in the case of an insurance company sueing to mitigate their losses, I imagine they'd probably just pay out and write it off without deep pockets to chase.

Engineering failure cases are not cheap cases.

I would hope so, but were in Arkansas.
There are lawyers that chase aambulances and will work for a happy meal from McDonalds.
A lot of the insurance companies, and attorneys are friends/related to some of the judges.
I've heard of some shady cases involving body shops doing shoddy repairs and there being some large lawsuits.
I know a couple of these shops didn't have insurance, but lost what little they had.
On the other hand these same shop owners open up another business in a family members name.
 
A competent welder should stand behind his work. If he's got a good understanding of what happens to metals when welding on them, he'll avoid those situations where liability due to carelessness are an issue, by simply refusing to do that work. People that do not understand the principles of how alloys affect metal when reheated during welding, how the heat affected zone forms around a weld and how to minimize the extreme stress on that area should not be doing welding in a general sense. Also those who will not do the proper weld prep (imagining they can penetrate to the base of a crack with an over-powered arc) or degrease or preheat should stay away. There aren't a whole lot of principles to observe, but the basics need to be rehearsed over and over again. Laziness in prep is probably the root of more repair failures than anything.

I've only had one case where a customer threatened to sue me, but his problem was that I had done some preparatory machining on the parts, and discovered that what I was going to be welding to was some sort of malleable cast iron (kind of masquerades as a steel), not the type of thing you want to weld to when subject to torsion. So I told him beforehand that welding to this part was not something I would recommend or guarantee. It was a special taper lock bushing, a heavy duty thing. I suggested I'd have to remake that part out of a weldable material. He insisted he didn't want to spend the extra money, it was his only choice for the alteration he was proposing and that he'd accept responsibility for it. Except, when it failed, he didn't want to :D But it was on him.
 
Having been sued for a personal injury I know a teeny bit about this. The lawyers don't go after the deep pockets, they simply file against everyone they can find. The purpose of this is so they actually do no work, because everyone filed against HAS to respond. Responding requires more lawyers and a boatload of money to defend yourself, BECAUSE everyone will be lying through their teeth blaming everyone else including you! In my the case injury occurred at a business that made a bad copy of a machine I gave away. To 'help' the injured guy they claimed the machine had been destroyed and they hired the largest law firm in NJ to write a 'friend of the court' brief explaining that they had positively identified that the employee was injured on the machine I built not on the copy they built. The guy who built the copy wasn't served, because he closed his own company and was hired as an employee to hide the fact he built the bad copy! $15K later the guy who got hurt explained exactly how it happened and it was clear he was injured by the mirror image copy not the one I built. The judge agreed and I was out, minus the $15K.
 
Nope, lawyers always go for the deep pockets (insurance company, business etc.). How many welders do you know that a lot of spare cash laying around or have a stack of assets?

The welder is in the clear with no problems. Yes I know, lawyers can sue anybody but the welder himself would be the last person way down the list.


Way down on the list is still on the list.


Welders are one of those professions that encompass a wide varied of talent. Kid takes a few month course at Welding Tech Institute, gets a certificate that says he can weld...meaningless in my book. At the other extreme we have my friend who specializes in underwater welding that travels the world cranking in some very good bucks.

My point is mainly that when its time to sue...nobody is safe these days.
 








 
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