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Management of outsourcing

Joined
May 29, 2010
Location
Denmark
Let's forget outsourcing in this particular thread as something done by big companies to increase profit and by buying from counties where labour is cheaper.

I've described outsourcing elsewhere in PM as buying something another place because they have more know-how and can do it better and cheaper than you could yourself. It could also be because you're in a tight spot to meet a delivery time and need help. In other words small companies helping each other out to mutual benefit.

In the part of Denmark (west) where I live this is done by many small companies that know and trust each other. Further east (towards Copenhagen) this isn't so much the case but as to why I don't know for sure.
City slickers? :)

We have small shops all over (almost always less than 50 or so employees) where some mill, others turn, heat treat, weld, surface treat, stamp, cast, etc. and often in specific types of material. Stainless steel, aluminium, whatever. They are all extrememly good at what they've chosen to specialize in. Some are geared to mass production and others to 1 off or small quantities. As almost all are suppliers and don't have a product of their own then the danger of them stealing customers that want a finished product is minimal. It spreads fast if any try to be too "smart".

Is this kind of thing common in the USA or not? If not it might be worth a try.

I've helped other out when they were in a tight spot and the favour has been returned when I was in a similar situation. This works best when the "cooperating" shops aren't too far from each other but the "knowing somebody that knows somebody" is usually fairly reliable. Who's going to recommend someone that they've had a bad experience with?

Dealing locally will often be easiest but needn't necessarily be the case every time. Even something like which suppliers of materials, tools, equipment give the best service and who sucks? If you can't give a reason for recommending or poo pooing based on own experience then use the Venting thread to bitch :)

Without turning this thread into a yard sale (in other words don't blow your own horn) who do you know that is worth a mention? Where are they and why are they good? Something similar is done in other threads and often as an answer to a question. If put into some kind of system then more could pull in the same direction instead of willy nilly.
 
Without turning this thread into a yard sale (in other words don't blow your own horn) who do you know that is worth a mention? Where are they and why are they good? .


Wait a minute.........so you want me to promote someone else's business who is in the same business as I am and steer potential customers in their direction instead of mine??? :confused: :nutter: :toetap:

Come on Gordon........time to pass the "peace pipe"! It has become quite apparent you've been smoking it for too long! :D

Best Regards,
Russ


If you think about it.......it's like walking into a grocery store and the manager meets you at the front door and tells you how good his competitors store is, right now down the street.
 
Wait a minute.........so you want me to promote someone else's business who is in the same business as I am and steer potential customers in their direction instead of mine??? :confused: :nutter: :toetap:

Come on Gordon........time to pass the "peace pipe"! It has become quite apparent you've been smoking it for too long! :D

Best Regards,
Russ


If you think about it.......it's like walking into a grocery store and the manager meets you at the front door and tells you how good his competitors store is, right now down the street.

Russ,

I'm suggesting you reread what I wrote :) If you can find a sentence (or even part of one) where I indicated that you handed out your business to your competitors then I'll go back to school and learn English all over again. When you've reread my post let me know if you still get out of it what you seem to have done. Me using you to outsource doesn't even mean that you have to know who my customer is. Still, the name of the game is "Trust" as I believe I also wrote.

On a slightly different note I've often been in a shop (and I know others that have done the same incuding my wife) and they didn't have what I wanted then they have told suggested another shop I could try - even although it was a competitor. Here in quaint old Denmark we call that "service" and it does get remembered. Your example of stopping me at the door without hearing what I want is just plain ludicrous LOL

I can't help but think when I read what you wrote that "Thieves think everybody steals" - not that I'm implying you are dishonest but you don't strike me as being over helpful with your attitude. Surely your part of the USA hasn't become "Me first, last and always"?

I suggest you talk to your (Danish) wife and ask if what I've just written is true or false :)

Gordon

I've not checked but I'm sure you've given others useful advice in here. Why would you want to do that unless you wanted to help? What I've suggested is no different :) Help is usually returned with help.
 
Gordon
What you are saying is a great practice and works for me and some other shops around me
But it is somthing that you have to work out with the other shops over time
As Wrustle says if I blow someone elses horn here on PM anyone needing work will go to them building that relationship with them rater than me
So it makes it hard to do that here
Yes help is returned with help.
Greg
 
Gordon,

I did re-read it and see the same thing..........

You wrote:

"I've described outsourcing elsewhere in PM as buying something another place because they have more know-how and can do it better and cheaper than you could yourself. It could also be because you're in a tight spot to meet a delivery time and need help. In other words small companies helping each other out to mutual benefit."

Yes, there are times when that scenario comes in to play. And there are many of us in this forum who do in fact either help each other out with knowledge and advice and others who even do work for one another. I myself have sent work to a member of this forum and at the same time have done work for a couple different members.




You wrote:

"In the part of Denmark (west) where I live this is done by many small companies that know and trust each other."

No different than in the states.




You wrote:

"As almost all are suppliers and don't have a product of their own then the danger of them stealing customers that want a finished product is minimal."

This I don't agree with at all. A customer should be one of your best kept secrets in my opnion. :smoking:

If you go to a good restaurant and love it, yes, spread the word. If you find yourself a good customer......treat them like they can do no wrong, and make them feel that way! But to go spreading the word about your good fortunes and who's providing them is "ludicrous". ;)

You might as well post your bank account information on line for all to see. :D




You wrote:

"Is this kind of thing common in the USA or not? If not it might be worth a try."

Yes, I'm sure most of us sub out work in one form or another, and when asked "who can do this type of work" I will gladly forward that information along........just like the good restaurant.




You wrote:

"Without turning this thread into a yard sale (in other words don't blow your own horn) who do you know that is worth a mention?"

The main gist of your post in my opinion is about shops subbing work out to other shops.....maybe I'm wrong.....but to me it is clearly what you wrote.

To then state....... "Without turning this thread into a yard sale (in other words don't blow your own horn) who do you know that is worth a mention?............you are asking us to promote someone else's business. It's black and white.

I have no problem recommending a shop to do work if it's something I can not do, but I'm not about to hand out their business card instead of my own.......which is kinda what you're asking.



Now, had you been talking about outside services for machine shops......that's a whole other story and would be more in line with what perhaps you are talking about.........so maybe you do need some English lessons!..........BTW......my wife agrees with me. :D

Best Regards,
Russ
 
Gordon, as an inventor, I get a lot of ideas. Some of them turn out quite good, most of them do not pass muster for one reason or another.

It seems to me that this latest idea of yours falls into my latter category.

As was mentioned, we already do much of what you suggest by helping each other, although I must say that I don't see that happening in California, where it seems shops don't help each other with information.

I also agree with Russ, that we are not here to advertise other business as a general practice.

And your next idea is??????
 
Gordon, as an inventor, I get a lot of ideas. Some of them turn out quite good, most of them do not pass muster for one reason or another.

It seems to me that this latest idea of yours falls into my latter category.

As was mentioned, we already do much of what you suggest by helping each other, although I must say that I don't see that happening in California, where it seems shops don't help each other with information.

I also agree with Russ, that we are not here to advertise other business as a general practice.

And your next idea is??????

In California the bigger shops sub overflow work to the little shops like us. When the little shops get swamped we just work more :cheers:
 
In California the bigger shops sub overflow work to the little shops like us. When the little shops get swamped we just work more :cheers:

That fits with my experience marketing in CA.

Back East, and in the Midwest, I would demo in a shop and the owner would call his friends to make an appointment for me to demo there.

In California, I would sell a spindle and I would ask if he knew another shop I could go to. I don't recall ever getting a referral. There could be a shop two doors away and they would never tell me about it. Maybe things have changed, but that's the way I found it years ago. I saw little or no cooperation between shops there.
 
I have no problem recommending a shop to do work if it's something I can not do, but I'm not about to hand out their business card instead of my own.......which is kinda what you're asking.

Russ

It wasn't "kinda what I was asking" so maybe I should relearn English :)
 
Gordon, as an inventor, I get a lot of ideas. Some of them turn out quite good, most of them do not pass muster for one reason or another.

It seems to me that this latest idea of yours falls into my latter category.

And your next idea is??????

Like you I'm an inventor and this wasn't an idea I just came up with. It's a fact. It is something that works here so maybe what you have "over there" is like politics - you use so much energy fighting each other that you make it even easier for small companies (in other countries) to win slowly but surely.

What I meant to emphasize was where I wrote:

We have small shops all over (almost always less than 50 or so employees) where some mill, others turn, heat treat, weld, surface treat, stamp, cast, etc. and often in specific types of material. Stainless steel, aluminium, whatever. They are all extrememly good at what they've chosen to specialize in. Some are geared to mass production and others to 1 off or small quantities. As almost all are suppliers and don't have a product of their own then the danger of them stealing customers that want a finished product is minimal. It spreads fast if any try to be too "smart".

but either this got lost among the other things I wrote or it isn't something that can be done in all places.

I certainly don't disagree with your:

I also agree with Russ, that we are not here to advertise other business as a general practice.

but if some threads are looked at and read it happens - although I woudn't say it was a "general practice".

I'm just thinking how many ideas (and this wasn't an idea but something that is done) get turned down off hand and they might just have been good. Perceverance is good but in this instance I'm not going to bother. We're doing OK here doing things the way we do (although we change to fit the times) and if you can say the same then we're all happy :)
 
Hold the phone here.

Gordon isn't there a big fuss going on right as we converse - that your country
is preparing to wall itself off from the EU in some major way?

Is this any way to promote outsourcing?
 
I've described outsourcing elsewhere in PM as buying something another place because they have more know-how and can do it better and cheaper than you could yourself. It could also be because you're in a tight spot to meet a delivery time and need help. In other words small companies helping each other out to mutual benefit.

IMHE, most shops that need to outsource will farm the work out, and keep it 'close to the vest', rather than just tell a customer to go to the other shop direct.....in a lot of cases (from my observation), there's usually a markup, as well)


We have small shops all over (almost always less than 50 or so employees) where some mill, others turn, heat treat, weld, surface treat, stamp, cast, etc. and often in specific types of material. Stainless steel, aluminium, whatever. They are all extrememly good at what they've chosen to specialize in. Some are geared to mass production and others to 1 off or small quantities. As almost all are suppliers and don't have a product of their own then the danger of them stealing customers that want a finished product is minimal. It spreads fast if any try to be too "smart".

others might have a different view, but from what I've seen, most small 'job shops' here usually don't specialize any closer than serving a specific industry....IOW, in the mold-making industry, a job-shop mold-maker will do as much as possible in-house (milling, wire & sinker EDM, finish grinding, mold repair, etc) as opposed to a shop that only does sinker EDM, for instance....
 
Like you I'm an inventor and this wasn't an idea I just came up with. It's a fact. It is something that works here so maybe what you have "over there" is like politics - you use so much energy fighting each other that you make it even easier for small companies (in other countries) to win slowly but surely.

The "idea" that I was referring to was to make a thread about this.

I don't see where you get the idea that we (the shops) fight each other so much. I don't see that, and I live here. If you refer just to the politics, I see that conflict in most countries.
 
The "idea" that I was referring to was to make a thread about this.

I don't see where you get the idea that we (the shops) fight each other so much. I don't see that, and I live here. If you refer just to the politics, I see that conflict in most countries.

I don't see where you get the idea that we (the shops) fight each other so much.

It was Russ's reply that made me think that. BTW to my way of thinking there is a big difference between not cooperating and fighting. I hope I didn't use the word "fight".

Yes you live there and I don't but you yourself seem to notice a difference between states. As for politics, especially USA politics :) I'll leave well alone LOL

This thread semed like a good idea at the time but I can now see that it didn't exactly work as intended.

I wonder what the world (from a manufacturing point of view) will look like in 10 years? My money is on Darwin :cheers:

Survival of the fittest - adapt or die.
 
It wasn't "kinda what I was asking" so maybe I should relearn English :)

I agree.....because it was EXACTLY what you were asking. :D

Perhaps your understanding of a "shop" is to include all the businesses that have anything to do with the manufacture of a product. Such as material suppliers, heat treating facilities, or places that do plating, etc.

In that regard, then yes I whole heartedly agree on "sometimes" sharing information on those suppliers and outside vendors which is what we commonly refer to them as here in the states.

To make a blanket statement (if that was your intention) that all those suppliers and vendors are considered "shops" is incorrect (in my opinion), thus the main emphasis of your thread gets derailed on the notion that we "shop" owners should be praising and recommending the other shops we subcontract our (machining) work too, rather than state what excellent service and pricing we recieve from certain outside vendors (non machining), and suppliers (again non machining), which is whole other thing.

Then I suppose there is the argument that, why should I give away my "trade secrets" (for lack of a better expression) and reveal my top notch low cost (yes, there is such a thing) suppliers which in turn may allow my competition to become more competitive?

That does not make good business sense to me. In some cases it may actually benefit you to not recommend anyone.

I'm all for helping people out, and have done so countless times in this forum, but there are some things you just need to keep close to the vest in order to keep one leg up on the competition! ;)

Best Regards,
Russ
 
I don't see where you get the idea that we (the shops) fight each other so much.

It was Russ's reply that made me think that. BTW to my way of thinking there is a big difference between not cooperating and fighting. I hope I didn't use the word "fight".

Ok, enlighten me........how do you interpret what I wrote as "the shops fight each other so much"............

Ok Gordon, I know it's late over there and perhaps cocktail hour has stretched into cocktail hours.....(happens to the best AND worst of us).....but come on......... :toetap:

Heading for a beer myself......,
Russ
 
.
It was Russ's reply that made me think that. BTW to my way of thinking there is a big difference between not cooperating and fighting. I hope I didn't use the word "fight"........

It is something that works here so maybe what you have "over there" is like politics - you use so much energy fighting each other that you make it even easier for small companies (in other countries) to win slowly but surely.

You might want to check your own posts...:rolleyes5:
 
Hold the phone here.

Gordon isn't there a big fuss going on right as we converse - that your country
is preparing to wall itself off from the EU in some major way?

Is this any way to promote outsourcing?

You seem to be up to date on what's ging on over here so I'll use this as an excuse to try and set things straight :)

In Europe most of the EU countries are part of something called The Schengen Treaty.

Schengen Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Briefly this means that anybody in one of 25 European countries can freely cross borders into another country. In later years this has being giving big problems to several countries not least Denmark.

Refugees in the thousands from Africa and Middle East countries are getting into Greece (through Turkey) and into Italy (across the Mediterranean) and from then on trying to get as far north as possible. The further they get north the better the social benefits. Like Mexicans getting into the USA I don't suppose you can blame them for trying. At least you don't throw money at them.

Another problem Denmark has (we have very mild jail sentences) is that bands of thieves (Rumanians are the main culprits but far from being the only ones) from former East European communist countries are having "Christmas" here every day. Even the few that get caught are just shipped across the border and are back within days.

We've simply had enough and now there will be spot checks held from next year at what were previous open borders. It has nothing to do with trying to prevent import or export of legal goods.

It's won't be even close to a millionth of what you have to go through making even the shortest trip by plane.

Britain does it now and several other countries (including France) want to do the same. It used to be that laws for the EU were passed by votes in the respective countries but the stupid people didn't vote the way the EU politicians felt they should so democratic voting got stopped. Ask 10 Germans if they are in favour of the Euro or not and I'll be surprised if a majority want it. They didn't get to vote on it. As good as all countries that put it to a national vote voted NO - one of which was Denmark.

To sum up. Denmark's social security laws were never geared to fit the number of illegal immigrants we're now getting and because they are both illegal and have no trade can't get work but still get the social benefits. Money from the state for food, housing, hospital treatment etc. etc.

The EU has a president and a foreign minister but I haven't a clue as to what they do or what their names are :eek:

There is much more I could write on this subject but not much to do with PM :)
 








 
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