Need some shop management advice

Jetrocket · Mar 16, 2018

Hey Guys,

I've been drowning in some issues as of a late in our shop and at the point to where I'm just not seeing a way out. I need some perspective here....

We are small job shop, have 11 employees and have occasional production runs that typically last for a 4 month period where we will run a double shift with limitless overtime (we are about to embark on that in the upcoming months)

I'm struggling here every turn I take whether it's with customer, vendors, employees etc... but mainly want to focus on the employee aspect of things for this post. I read it everywhere on this forum about lack of skilled labor and a shortage of machinist available, but in this scenario just getting people to show up and perform a task or two has turned into a mere impossibility. Oh man can they complain... "that's too heavy, that's hard, Deburr and run my machine?! Run two machines?!!!" Then of course pay... there isn't enough room in this post to get into all the conversations had regarding this with them but to sum it up they do 3/4 of a halved ass job but expect 2X as much because their buddy Joe Shmoe is making whatever elsewhere.

...taking a deep breath (I'm not an a-hole and am normally very calm and honest with them)

I'm more then willing to admit that a lot of our issues stem from the top down but I'm in belief that even if we were to change our ways as a business that the people we have now wouldn't be as willing to change theirs. I've stopped any training, as it is eating my time and yielding no results. The owner is in limbo on whether to just cut ties with this crew and start fresh or invest more time into getting these guys to where we need them.

What's the solution in this industry? employees want more for less while customers want the same damn thing... getting it from both ends it seems. Anyone else been here? What do you do? I'm trying to convince the owner to invest in labor not more machines to sit idle.

p.s. We are located in the Bay Area if it affects anything.

allloutmx · Mar 16, 2018

One small piece that I feel most management misses on is how painful it is to run a production machine. Ive been at it since I was a kid- ran a ton of production, worked through an apprenticeship and currently maintain a day job with a side gig at home. I was fortunate- to have been given/earned the opportunity to elevate my position from operator to toolmaker apprentice to cnc programmer, but that is not the fate of I would say at least 85% of the people I have ever worked with. It is very hard for young men my age, and maybe even harder for the older guys to watch a young guy or any guy zip on by while they have to feed the mills and deburr parts day after day.

You need to find a way to make these people feel like they are a bigger part of the team IMO. They have to buy into what it is you are trying to sell...you cannot force it. Most of the time this comes down to culture. You may not be able to give them the opportunity to be an engineer- but you can still provide them with a decent wage and a kick ass place to work.

just my .o2

Zahnrad Kopf · Mar 16, 2018

allloutmx said:
It is very hard for young men my age, and maybe even harder for the older guys to watch a young guy or any guy zip on by while they have to feed the mills and deburr parts day after day.

You need to find a way to make these people feel like they are a bigger part of the team IMO. They have to buy into what it is you are trying to sell...you cannot force it. Most of the time this comes down to culture. You may not be able to give them the opportunity to be an engineer- but you can still provide them with a decent wage and a kick ass place to work.

just my .o2

Turns out the kid is a lot smarter than he looks.

allloutmx · Mar 16, 2018

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Turns out the kid is a lot smarter than he looks.

I learnin Pops. :codger:

gbent · Mar 16, 2018

I see the bay area often listed as one of the most expensive places in the USA to live. Does your shop, and especially your production jobs, really have to be there?

Hbjj · Mar 16, 2018

Sorry but you're not paying enough.
Top pay = top people.
You may need to change your business model to utilize the workers you can afford
But I'm just a lowly handle twister what do I know

Zahnrad Kopf · Mar 16, 2018

Hbjj said:
Sorry but you're not paying enough.
Top pay = top people.
You may need to change your business model to utilize the workers you can afford
But I'm just a lowly handle twister what do I know

I missed it somehow. What is he paying them?

HDFanboy · Mar 16, 2018

Sounds like you need to pour these guys a cup of concrete in the morning and tell them to harden up. Where I work in a production shop we only have 5 guys on the day shift running 10 mills and lathes where we each run multiple machines all day every day plus deburing parts and clocking on and off each job on the computers. On top of that I also put all the complete parts in the put away area and bring material to the machines for them to run and a bunch of other stuff and none of our guys would complain. I guess it might make a difference on what they are getting paid but if they are only willing to run one machine and do a single thing at a time it might be worth replacing a couple of them just to show the others how far your willing to go and get them doing more.

Guest · Mar 16, 2018

Without more details I will just guess your employees aren't asked to work very hard when your not bogged down or you have a group of slackers. I have been self employed for over 20 years and no longer have employees, but back when I worked for the man running CNCs or cam automatics depending on cycle times and degree of difficulty a person was required to run at least two machines, sometimes four. I would think with the high cost of living in the bay area you would have to at least pay in the low $30's an hour to keep a decent machinist and probably low $20's an hour for a reliable button pusher. Is your company paying enough? Doesn't San Francisco have a $15 an hour minimum wage?

macgyver · Mar 16, 2018

I say let the owner make the decision as without them to back you up you aren't going to get very far with the employees.

In my opinion raising pay is not always going to get you what you need. Unfortunately some workers get set in their ways and higher pay is only going to work for a little while. Most likely going to have to start over with new culture and new help.

I'd also look into making this upcoming job more efficient, would a different set of machines decrease number of people needed to get the job done?

ManualEd · Mar 16, 2018

For some people, no matter how little they do, and how much they're paid, it's always too much and not enough.

There's no changing people like that.
You're better off starting from scratch with people who haven't picked up 10 years of laziness.

JS · Mar 16, 2018

Maybe the thing to do is look into more technology.

I worked at a place that had a CNC lathe with a built in parts loader / robot.....

Load the parts carousel with small castings and hit the button......spot check as it ran....

bigjon61 · Mar 16, 2018

We have a similar problem here in the middle of the USA. We haven't been able to counter the problem from the skills side so we try to counter it from the technological side. Deburr as much as you can in the machine even if it takes longer and try to reduce part handling. If you have to load a part every 100 seconds in a machine it makes for a long day. If you can load 36 into a carousel or pallet pool in a matter of minutes, and only have to load it once an hour it frees up a bunch of time to be loading or running another machine

PeteM · Mar 17, 2018

Could be a +1 to Alloutmx. You mentioned problems from the top. From the bottom it may look like we're doing crap work, of no significance, so an owner can drive his BMW to work, show up late, and park near the window office where he pretty much acts as a jerk? If so, might be able to change that with a customer-focused mission, a bit more intrinsic interest in the work, and a great or absent owner?

Add to that the incredibly high cost of living in most of the Bay Area. There are a couple hundred thousand jobs near or well above $100,000 for people working at Google, Facebook, Intel, IBM, Oracle, etc. etc. Not so many well paying jobs for people who might be competing with the cheapest labor on the planet, and maybe running newer machines?

Can you describe the customers, the product, the competitors, the pay? You might have some degrees of freedom to make this work in the Bay Area, with the current owner, and many or most of your current employees. Could also be that you need to find higher margin work? Could be you want to automate rather than hire more staff? Could be you yourself should be looking for a company to work for with great senior management; and whose customers place a greater value its service?

Jetrocket · Mar 20, 2018

here is a little more info....

I'm 29 and have worked here for the last 11 years starting from initially being a shop hand / janitor into deburring, operating, setup, programming, inspection, quoting, purchasing etc...

I've been where they are and am understanding as I can be, but it's pure laziness... no matter what's asked it's too much. I'd say our average "operator" makes about $20 and machinist around $30 so not too far off from what it seems other people offer but this whole pay more get more theory does not seem to be working out.

We're a relatively small shop so not everyone can be top dog, Kick ass to these guys means don't question me, if you notice somethings being done inefficiently or incorrectly and point it out then feelings are hurt and they become impossible to talk too.

We've discussed automation but never seriously as it seems like the initial investment both in time and money overweighs the issues we have on the floor. As far as location I believe it's the convenience of being close to our customers that keeps us where we are at. No plans to move at this point.

We've also discussed starting from scratch, again time and money overweigh the issues we are currently having.

Long term plan is me running/owning this shop so I'm mentally invested in a lot of what goes on now as it could benefit my future. I'm a firm believer that good work should = good pay but in that order, at this point I would be more interested in increasing our capabilities/technology as we currently stick to our comfort zone which I'd like to get out of.

I guess what I really need to figure out is how to identify a "good" worker during the hiring process and monitor better during a probationary period. I've been thinking all weekend on what we can do with what we've got but ended with up nothing in all honesty. I do not own the business or control the finances so monetary decisions ultimately are not up to me.

Jetrocket · Mar 20, 2018

PeteM said:
Could be a +1 to Alloutmx. You mentioned problems from the top. From the bottom it may look like we're doing crap work, of no significance, so an owner can drive his BMW to work, show up late, and park near the window office where he pretty much acts as a jerk? If so, might be able to change that with a customer-focused mission, a bit more intrinsic interest in the work, and a great or absent owner?

Owner is definitely not a flaunt my cash type, drives a beat up truck and dress's like the rest of us. A display in interest in what happens in our shop is lacking on hos end though... might be worth discussing with him.

gbent · Mar 20, 2018

Jetrocket said:
I guess what I really need to figure out is how to identify a "good" worker during the hiring process and monitor better during a probationary period. I've been thinking all weekend on what we can do with what we've got but ended with up nothing in all honesty. I do not own the business or control the finances so monetary decisions ultimately are not up to me.

If you aren't lead dog, the view is all the same.

It will be of little use to identify the type of worker you wish to employ if you subject them to the environment you have described. The new employee will either change his habits to fit in with the rest of the shop or will quit to work in a shop where he does fit.

AARONT · Mar 20, 2018

Frankly it sounds like a shit show from top to bottom.

First thing I would do is show them it can be done. You need to do this with every employee. Show them you can do exactly what you are asking them to do. This does two things. It shows them what your asking can be done, and it also allows you to see if there are areas you can improve upon to help them be more efficient. Also, ask them if they have any ideas that would make their job easier. Their ideas may suck, but at least you are showing them you care about making their job easier.

Second, you need a guy on the floor who believes you are trying to improve things AND is good at what they do. A leader can only do so much if no one is willing to follow and it helps if the one who follows is respected by their peers.

Third, you need to let everyone know where you stand and give them firm black and white instructions. Let them know what is expected of them and there needs to be repercussions if they do not do what is expected. First time is a verbal warning, second time is a write up, third time they are gone. Also make sure to let them know you are making these changes in attempt to raise profitability so you can advocate for raises for everyone.

The owner needs to be on board to make anything work. Just remember, a shitty attitude is cancer in a shop. It doesn't take long for one asshole to drop everyone's morale. So while you may have the whole shop being whiny bitches, it may very well be that there are only one or two people causing the issue. Find the cancer, if they don't change then get rid of them. As a company you need to make it known that you won't deal with bullshit, but you also need to let them know you will go to bat and do what you can for them.

Just remember. Management is a thankless bullshit job where you piss off people all the time. Just make sure you piss off the right people.

Matt@RFR · Mar 20, 2018

What I and a few other local shops have done is hire good workers that you can train. One of my guys only has experience in construction, the other some sales and some landscaping type jobs, neither of them would have ever applied for a machinist / operator position. The first one is my neighbor, so I've known him for several years and knew he took his employment seriously, the other was recommended by the first guy. Both are super solid, smart guys. They are not machinists and will never be, but as physical setup / operators they are fantastic and are always concerned about turning out the highest quality they can.

My neighbor is fixing to poach a girl from Taco Bell. Another shop owner is looking at somebody that works at the hardware store. At this point, unless they came with one hell of a recommendation letter, I don't think I would ever hire an actual machinist.

Bobw · Mar 20, 2018

I'm 29 and have worked here for the last 11 years

My 2 cents.. Being a manager isn't easy.. Its not an easy thing to get thrust
into. Back when I was a yung'n I got thrust into the manager role, or at least
supervisor.. We eventually got a good boss that actually knew what he was doing,
and he was a GREAT mentor..

One of things he did, that helped me out A LOT.. He would send all us supervisors
off to management seminars every couple of years.. He would go with us.. I would
highly suggest going to a seminar or 2.. There are a few companies that go all over
the country doing seminars (usually at the Hilton by the airport). I think the ones
we used to go to were by Fred Pryor, and there are others..

Tell your boss, "I need to learn how to do 'This' better..".. Those stupid seminars
really helped me out a lot. At this point there are probably some great YouTube videos
out there also..

Get some help, or instruction... I'm not saying you are doing a bad job, but managing
people is a whole other basket of tricks, its a lot more than just telling people what to do.
Probably help give you some more confidence also.

Need some shop management advice

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