Owners.....did your cirlce of friends change when you became self employed?

Title describes the topic.

When you started your business or became self employed, did your friends change, did some fade away? If so, why do you think they did?
Do you find most of your friends since have also tended to be self employed?

What say ye?


I'll share more perspective later.

Most of my friends are self employed, I meet with a group of shop owners every thursday night for beer. They have been meeting for 25 years same place. I have learned alot from them about what to do and what not to do. I have alot more in common with self employed people even when they are in a totally different business.

kpotter said:

Most of my friends are self employed, I meet with a group of shop owners every thursday night for beer. They have been meeting for 25 years same place. I have learned alot from them about what to do and what not to do.

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You cannot imagine how bizarre that concept even sounds for these parts.
Shop owners (as far as I know based on years of experience) don't even speak to each other. It's a 'don't ask, don't tell' world pretty much. Networking and sharing ideas is out of the question, and there 'must' be some ulterior motive if you dare suggest it. Consider yourself very lucky.
In some parts of the country there are hobbyist metal working clubs, and 'maker spaces' for example. None on the east coast tho...maybe a few maker spaces geared toward young people?
I actually posed the 'metal working club' question different times, and the prevailing response was a blatant 'what's in it for me' scenario.
It seems to be the same attitude with business.
Dog-eat-dog.

Ah, yes and no. When I started I became friends with the other shop owners in the neighborhood because I manufactured a product and didn't compete with them. A lot of them had it in for each other because they bid against each other all the time. Now if you meant making friends in general as a result of being in business, well then look no further than your suppliers and customers. You pay somebody within terms long enough that you are someone they can count on, or a customer becomes someone you can count on, the voice on the phone becomes that of a friend. It's the same basis for any relationship, really. It is a great experience to finally meet someone you've known for years and with whom you've developed a mutual respect and appreciation. Over the years we have gone to many weddings of suppliers' and customers' children. Sometimes we've visited sales reps when in their towns, which is kind of a switch, but reps can be good people even though they live by their wits just like you.

And by the way, quit being "self-employed." You're IN BUSINESS.

Yes, my friends all turned into assholes. Thank God I haven't changed at all.

There wasn't many to begin with after high school...
Everyone else having lives and getting married or moving away changes things more than the rest. I'm still the only self employed one as far as I know.
Got newer great friends/acquaintances closer to where I live now, great people/neighbors, a few other guys through shooting and such. Bunch of us get together once a month for a few drinks, I'm happy with that.

I guess "shop owners" must really vary from place to place.

Because in the world I live in, there is a lot of friendship.

The blacksmithing world is incredibly "sharing", in a macho, bearded, knifemaking, firearms owning kind of hippie way.
I have, over the last 25 years, become good friends with a lot of blacksmiths who own shops, have employees, and do business- not hobby types with day jobs, but real businessmen and women.
And none of em are selfish, dog eat dog types.
I can call up somebody I barely know, and ask for technical advice, and get it.
(more often, they call me, but thats just because I have weird specialist knowledge, particularly about forging stainless)

And, locally, where I live, I have similar relationships with people in all phases of metalworking, as well as other trades.

Part of this may be because I am not a machining only job shop- but, around here, you see a lot of collaboration, shared projects, and advice given and taken between all kinds of people- timber framers, cabinetmakers, blacksmiths, metal fabricators, boatbuilders, jewelers, furniture makers, glassblowers, and more.

Maybe its just a west coast thing- we tend to have less patience for assholes out here, especially ones who think they have earned the right just by getting old.
Anybody can get old- aint no big thang.

Either way- I am lucky- I can count lots of business owners as friends, and can ask for advice without fear.

dkmc said:

You cannot imagine how bizarre that concept even sounds for these parts.
Shop owners (as far as I know based on years of experience) don't even speak to each other. It's a 'don't ask, don't tell' world pretty much. Networking and sharing ideas is out of the question, and there 'must' be some ulterior motive if you dare suggest it. Consider yourself very lucky.

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Funny how this concept is taboo in your part of the country, but normal in others.

The fact that the "Shop Management and Owner Issues" forum is alive and well and not just an empty page is definite proof that there are people who do share their info with other fellow shop owners.

I am not a machinist or an owner. I work in automation, but I assume the attitude is the same. Interactions with others in the trade are always cautious. Much of the issue in my trade has more to do with stealing employees rather than customers although that is an issue also. The phrase: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Comes to mind, everyone wants to figure out their competitors without giving out any information on their own exploits.

JR

If you guys are going to start a cool dude club, I want in.....

I have less time for my friends then ever. Since starting my own shop, I have invested the majority of my waking hours working either the day job, or the home shop. When I do have spare time, I spend most of that with my kids. I make an effort to stay in touch with my closest friends, but I think at 30 years old, most of the fellas my age are in the same boat... just started a family and working hard to make something from life.

Owners.....did your circle of friends change when you became self employed?

Somewhat, yes. When I first was thinking of becoming self employed (I don't consider myself a business owner, as I don't own a building and have no employees) 18 years ago, I did a somewhat informal poll of my friends at the time as to if they thought self employment would work out for me or not. The results were split about 50/50. Half said: "Go for it. You'll do great. I'll help you however I can." The other half said:" Don't do it. You'll fail. It's too hard." I later figured out the positive half were self employed and the negative half were employees of someone. Since then, I have probably leaned more towards people who think more like myself, and are self employed. We help each other talk through business type problems, much the same as we do here.

Oldwrench said:

And by the way, quit being "self-employed." You're IN BUSINESS.

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Ah.....yea, same thing,
I am self employed, and obviously in business.
And as long as I am in business.......I can't quit being self employed.
Therefore, your comment makes no sense.

Philabuster said:

Funny how this concept is taboo in your part of the country, but normal in others.

The fact that the "Shop Management and Owner Issues" forum is alive and well and not just an empty page is definite proof that there are people who do share their info with other fellow shop owners.

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And based on your observation, you can imagine how happy I am that PM exits!

dkmc said:

You cannot imagine how bizarre that concept even sounds for these parts.
Shop owners (as far as I know based on years of experience) don't even speak to each other. It's a 'don't ask, don't tell' world pretty much. Networking and sharing ideas is out of the question,........

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That weird.
Most of my friends are direct competitors. We share lots of stuff, visit each others shops. Cry on each others shoulders about the same customers and jobs.
We also trade employees and steal work from each other.
It's business and the way it works. You win some you loose some.
I've never felt the need to be "secret" or protective. I know darn well somebody is going to talk or jump ship giving up everything I do.
I know every machine, process, and technique on their floor and am sure they know mine.
Yes there are a few who for some strange reason think they have something special or where born at the right hand of God and don't like to be friendly.
Silly IMO. Yes it is dog eat dog but we are all in the same boat and no need not to be friends while understanding we all want to steal the others food given the chance.
Bob
.

That's the way it should be IMO, and what I would prefer.
I've reached out, and over the years, have had maybe a 15% sucess rate.
Considering the number of shops in this area, I think that's low.
There (is) a local SME chapter but I heard recently that activity has dwindled
to near zero.
Maybe everybody's too busy scrambling to pay their share of the highest taxes in the nation? I did find when I was down south last spring folks were generally in a better mood, and in less of a hurry. I've had more than one person around here over the years make the "must be something in the water" comment.....lol.
Also seems to be general consensus that any club is mostly an avenue to start an argument rather than get to the subject at hand. I saw this first hand in a local model airplane club back in the late '70's. I know this sounds weird! But I'm merely reporting what I know.

Damn...I know a good % of the local shop owners and like to think I am friendly with them.

...well I know "I" am friendly and they do seem to reciprocate as well.

Need a tool, piece of material, credit reference...just general question the doors have swung both ways for years.

Cross hiring usually gets a call first...Hey...you know so and so is looking? You want to let him go...what are their good points , bad points....
Similar with customers...we do not undercut each other...but then again we run different shops so if something is tailored to them...its where I send the customer...or that part of the job. Seems to work both ways as I get a fair amount of work from them too.

Anyway... to the OP


Friends that work for others tend to look at life a bit differently then I do...Kind of like talking politics and religion...I try to keep work as a taboo topic as our views can be very different.

Last month my Ol' time high school bud came over we got to talking and he asked what benefits "I Give" my employees....my answer "I give nothing" they earn what they get...which went into how much of a "raise" we give every year...that led back to it depends on how much of a raise "they earn"...and I give raises when deserved...not yearly.
I then shot back with why he should be making X amount for a relatively simple job, why can he overbook his hours a percentage as his seniority goes up...that's on top of the yearly increases...to which the answer was that "cause I have a good union". When I mentioned its such a great union that it is overpricing the service you provide and you will all wind up out of a job...to which he shrugged...but the pay is good now...and his managers do nothing and make more....so I reaffirmed my taboo topics and leave to talk about houses, cars...old times, family and getaways.

Most of my customers/friends are other business people. People who run businesses (successfully) understand the give and take of doing business.

I think most employees do not understand that mindset at all, to them, it is all about "me" and 'how hard/little I work', and 'getting statutory holiday pay' and 'working overtime on stat holidays',' getting plastered on the weekends', etc. They are myopic, and not real thinkers. When they try to go into a business of their own, if they don't drop this attitude, they will fail. They just don't get it.

So there is a natural separation of the two camps.

I think that there is a fundamental difference in the valuation of time between the Self-employed and the Wage-earner. If a wage earner comes in hungover on a Monday (say, after a Super Bowl) and lurks from one dark corner of the shop to another, he or she makes exactly the same money as if they had drunk only water during the game. The self-employed know that if they are going to make money they have to be at the top of their game even if that means cutting out early on the party after the big game.

Therefore the friends who don't get why you won't go clubbing on a Wednesday or call in sick because dear season opened will fall away. If you participate in other organizations like chambers of commerce or small business groups you will find more like-minded people. Being self employed will change you. To thrive in business (especially in the early years) you've got to eat, drink, breathe and dream your business. There is no leaving it at the office. To remain sane you have to have boundaries and times when you can leave it behind but even then it will sneak into conversations and you'll find yourself dreaming up solutions to problems while on vacations....

I've observed that for a lot of the wage-earners a significant portion of their daily conversation is about what a crappy boss they have and how much they hate their jobs. As a business owner it becomes hard to even listen to that crap. I've told several people, "Don't like it? Move on." If you say things like that certain friends will stop coming around.

I should point out I notice the cold shoulder more between the machine shops and fab shops than say, my business (job shop) and other business owners. Maybe it's the fear of stealing work or employees.

Few years ago, the biggest (150-ish people) machine/fab job shop in the area was looking for subs. I went there and had a talk with them. They wanted me (and others) to sign a non-compete agreement that said I would not be able to pursue any work for anyplace they were doing work for.
I'm like....WTF? I'm not signing that!
And besides, we ALREADY have mutual customers.
Well, they didn't like my non-conformist stance.
Even so, I explained that I could spend the rest of my life viciously pursuing their customers, and they'd never even notice it in their bottom line....
Talk about paranoid......jeesh...

Speaking of certain "friends"....
Way back in 1988-1989 when I was working out of my Moms 2 car garage, I made the decision to purchase a real shop and move. There was a group of several "friends" that basically knew me when they had car troubles, needed something welded/machined, or something fixed. It's funny to recall now, how fast they disappeared when I mentioned the move. And most have never been heard from again! There were also the couple that I would have bet would stick around and offer help.....and did. Laughable now, not so much back then.

dkmc said:

...
Few years ago, the biggest (150-ish people) machine/fab job shop in the area was looking for subs. I went there and had a talk with them. They wanted me (and others) to sign a non-compete agreement that said I would not be able to pursue any work for anyplace they were doing work for.
I'm like....WTF? I'm not signing that!
And besides, we ALREADY have mutual customers.
Well, they didn't like my non-conformist stance.
Even so, I explained that I could spend the rest of my life viciously pursuing their customers, and they'd never even notice it in their bottom line....
Talk about paranoid......jeesh......

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I had a similar situation some years ago. I told "Mr. Big Shop": "I'm a 1-man band, and pretty much an idiot. If you're worried about me taking your work, you're already doing something wrong."
As you can tell, I make friends everywhere I go.

I think the reduction/ change in friends is somewhat due to jealousy. When I started my first shop 20 years ago many folks assumed I was wealthy as soon as they found out I was the shop owner. I was a young buck with nothing but debt... I didn't come from money, just came from hard work, so I learned to do that!
I rented a building, bought a couple beat up 40 year old machines, barely made enough money to cover utilities. On a good month I could even buy groceries AND pay rent!
But many folks thought that since my name was on the card as "owner" I was rich....
My true friends have been the same for 30 years. There are few, the ones I really consider friends are on a short list.