property rights on redesigned parts

lumley32 · May 28, 2017

so I had a meeting with a very good customer of mine last week, which has taken some time to digest in my head.

I make a product for him, that he owns the patient and rights for. he has asked me to re-design and make that product to fit a new market, same branding, keeping the look the same but compleate new drawing.

would you:-

a) redraw the part and make the new parts just charging for the machining?

b) charge for the drawing time as a one off and then charge for making the parts?

c) some other option in between?

interested to hear your thoughts!

Clive603 · May 28, 2017

Charge for the re-engineering and new drawings separately. Not forgetting to take the opportunity to propose invisible or don't care changes that will make the products easier and faster to manufacture if the customer agrees.

Clive

DMF_TomB · May 28, 2017

lumley32 said:
so I had a meeting with a very good customer of mine last week, which has taken some time to digest in my head.

I make a product for him, that he owns the patient and rights for. he has asked me to re-design and make that product to fit a new market, same branding, keeping the look the same but compleate new drawing.

would you:-

a) redraw the part and make the new parts just charging for the machining?

b) charge for the drawing time as a one off and then charge for making the parts?

c) some other option in between?

interested to hear your thoughts!

.
.
if you are slow and takes hours to do CAD work that customer himself has done in 10 minutes before obviously he might be unhappy getting charged over $100 for CAD work.
.
i have known machine shops wanting to charge $150. just to redraw something (they given CAD model but it is not their particular Cad software) when i have drawn it in 5 minutes and made the part in less than 1/2 hour. obviously those shops dont get many small jobs
.
by the way you take car part and slot a hole and make a drawing that dont give you the rights to the car design.

Guest · May 28, 2017

I think if it depends on the ratio of time for a redraw and redesign to how many production hours on the parts.
I would also factor in the profit from the production run. If the redraw and redesign take 8 hours for a 2,000 hour production run at $100 shop rate I would happily donate my time. There are all kinds of people who do unpaid favors for good customers, those that claim they don't are either liars or won't be in business long.

Red James · May 28, 2017

One of the "people skills" I gradually developed was to 'sort of' make design changes, then forward the sketch to my customer's engineering department. Engineers like to feel they fixed the part, not you.

Gordon B. Clarke · May 28, 2017

lumley32 said:
so I had a meeting with a very good customer of mine last week, which has taken some time to digest in my head.

I make a product for him, that he owns the patient and rights for. he has asked me to re-design and make that product to fit a new market, same branding, keeping the look the same but compleate new drawing.

would you:-

a) redraw the part and make the new parts just charging for the machining?

b) charge for the drawing time as a one off and then charge for making the parts?

c) some other option in between?

interested to hear your thoughts!

b) of course. Why? Because of "very good customer". Did you think he wanted you to use "thinking time" free of charge?

You can always let him know in advance you'll be billing for the extra time you use.

Now if you're married to his daughter then that's a whole different ball game

LKeithR · May 28, 2017

Dualkit said:
I think if it depends on the ratio of time for a redraw and redesign to how many production hours on the parts.
I would also factor in the profit from the production run. If the redraw and redesign take 8 hours for a 2,000 hour production run at $100 shop rate I would happily donate my time. There are all kinds of people who do unpaid favors for good customers, those that claim they don't are either liars or won't be in business long.

This is so true--so much of the success of a business depends on its relationship with its customers. The right way to deal with any situation like this is to
have a conversation with the customer and work out a solution that works for both of you...

Wild West · May 28, 2017

As far as property rights for redesign, unless you have an agreement, preferably in writing, everything you do belong to the customer as long as they pay you for your time.

lumley32 · May 28, 2017

to answer some questions, i consider the customer a friend but we have a working relationship as well, so favours are done (i used one of his personal machine today as i am in his neck of the woods racing this week)

however we tend to keep business as just that. i will put it to him that i want paying for my cad time, im not a full time cad guy but i can work faster and to a better standard than he can.

its probably 10 hours work for me to do the cad, 4 components and handed with lots of features. he gives me plenty of work, but not the biggest customer monthly!

Gordon B. Clarke · May 28, 2017

lumley32 said:
to answer some questions, i consider the customer a friend but we have a working relationship as well, so favours are done (i used one of his personal machine today as i am in his neck of the woods racing this week)

however we tend to keep business as just that. i will put it to him that i want paying for my cad time, im not a full time cad guy but i can work faster and to a better standard than he can.

its probably 10 hours work for me to do the cad, 4 components and handed with lots of features. he gives me plenty of work, but not the biggest customer monthly!

If I was your customer and read the title you gave this thread I might have second thoughts about being "a good customer" and maybe even think about becoming an ex customer.

It reads as if you happen to come up with a major improvement you might make it yourself. Don't know about the UK but here as a supplier you'd be in legal trouble.

SIM · May 29, 2017

No legal idea here...but if someone comes to me with an idea and we bring it to fruition it is theirs....my only expectation is being offered first crack at the production runs.
I will usually charge to cover my costs for better customers. I am not an engineering or design firm...just a guy that has made lots of parts with some grasp on how to make a part or assembly inexpensive without scrimping on quality.

Orange Vise · May 29, 2017

Gordon B. Clarke said:
b) of course. Why? Because of "very good customer". Did you think he wanted you to use "thinking time" free of charge?

It's not so simple.

Without knowing the complexity of the redesign, we can't comment.

Reading between the lines, I'm thinking that the OP can't afford to lose this customer, so with that in mind, perhaps he should just bite the bullet and do the redesign for free (assuming it's not very complex) to maximize the chances of ongoing business. He can recoup the cost when he makes the actual parts. This usually isn't the best course of action, but the reality of business is that sometimes the customer holds all the cards.

That said, I'm not seeing the correlation between the OP's post and thread title. Was his question edited at some point?

Gordon B. Clarke · May 29, 2017

Orange Vise said:
It's not so simple.

Without knowing the complexity of the redesign, we can't comment.

Reading between the lines, I'm thinking that the OP can't afford to lose this customer, so with that in mind, perhaps he should just bite the bullet and do the redesign for free (assuming it's not very complex) to maximize the chances of ongoing business. He can recoup the cost when he makes the actual parts. This usually isn't the best course of action, but the reality of business is that sometimes the customer holds all the cards.

That said, I'm not seeing the correlation between the OP's post and thread title. Was his question edited at some point?

I thought it was simple but then again, I didn't read between the lines. Is it an "American thing" for a supplier to be nervous to discuss with a customer? I'm also getting from the thread they know each other plus the customer isn't one of their biggest. Maybe you are reading way too much "between the lines".

BTW I thought the OP was written so we could comment and that's what most have done.

All I can say is I'd never expect any of my suppliers to "bite the bullet".

As to the title of this thread then we do agree and hence my remarks on "property rights" as I can't see any connection with the OP and that.

kpotter · May 29, 2017

I pay my vendors to redraw my drawings all the time. I have no problem paying to have them redone. The drawing is a small cost compared to the total cost of production. I would be shocked if one of them thought they owned the design because they changed a few dimensions to improve the manufactuability of the product.

michiganbuck · May 30, 2017

Property rights? …does that title imply you may think to get more that cost of hours?
Every thing is competitive. It is likely the good customer knows the time it should take. Best to be fair, honest and open.
You could be up front to say it will take 10 hours to redraw. Would you like to be charged that up front or have me figure part of the costs it into the future part orders.
If redraw and some changes would be a trifle of costs you could just eat the cost.

If this is a main customer then your engineer and/or draftsman is on staff for the work already and being paid for by the customer already.
If a one man band and so need to take away from production hours the charge is due IMHO.

Joe Miranda · May 30, 2017

We charge a minumum of 1 hour for design time - and NOTHING takes five minutes. If it were that simple then the customer should draw it themselves. If they are too lazy or unwilling to re-draw the part themselves, fine - we will do it but it will cost them a minumum of 1 hour.

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property rights on redesigned parts

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Red James

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