Question for shop owners, type of work and turn around??

I wasn't too sure what to put for a title. I can only imagine that other shop owners have had to deal with something similar, maybe its just a problem when starting out. Currently I'm usually the quick turn around shop. I know that most of my customers have normal production work that would be steady but I rarely get to quote any of it at all, likely so that when the next rush comes I'm not too busy...??? or I get the odd stuff that few want to touch which I'm usually quite ok with. Not complaining, so far it has worked quite well actually. I'm just trying to somehow get things more steady, it would be nice to sometimes know whats coming a couple weeks ahead. Goal is to maintain about 40-50billable hours in a 7day week(thats usually 80+hours of running around by the time its done...) this week for example was only about 15 billable hours(could all change tomorrow at 4pm haha)

I'm also wondering how it all happens, what makes it so that the production work would just go elsewhere. Its obviously not quality because when I have 1 day to turn around a part, it has to work first try and be perfect. I don't get a month or 2 to figure it out. So all I can figure is its either price, or more likely just because the other shops have done it so long, theres a comfort zone knowing what to expect from them(even if its bad) and change is hard to initiate? which I can certainly understand. I'm by no means a high production shop either. Its all manual, mostly small parts. Although I'd like to eventually grow a bit while staying a 1 man shop. I wonder how it'll happen if theres no real long term steady work. Hard to plan anything on what usually is a day to day basis, I'm just glad my overhead is low.

Have any of you been in this situation and how did you manage to get more steady normal production work while letting them know that you would likely still be able to do their quick turn around work? did it just turn that way over time? I've wanted to keep it to a few customers in order to be able to give good service to all of them, its also easier to manage say 5 customer that want everything at the same time, than 30 that want everything at the same time...But sometimes its just too slow so maybe the way is to just get more customers and then pick what I want? hard to create any backlog when everything is needed within a week.

What are the other options. Perhaps simply stick to only being the quick turn around shop and charge accordingly so that when I have to sit on my butt for a few days checking PM, its paid for?
Other option is to work on those little widgets to sell but thats not coming along too fast.

Anyhow, any experience in this is very welcome. Even if we don't find the real answer. Its something to chat about

thanks

I was thinking the same as you are when I was trying to find my "niche". Finally figured out that I had found my niche, and just didn't recognize it! I'm the prototype/repair/fast turnaround/job no one else wants guy. I can't compete with a big CNC shop on production work, no way in hell, I don't even try to. But, they can't compete with me on my kind of work. I now know that, and charge accordingly. I'm a specialist!

This morning for example, one of my customers (a plastics molder, I mostly work on molds and related tooling and projects) called me at 10:00 with a problem. A mold they were in the middle of running had broken some inserts and needed to be taken apart and have some new inserts fitted to it. I cleaned up what I was working on and rushed over there (only 7 miles away), and picked up the mold, which had just come out of the press and was still hot. By 11:30 I had it back here and pretty much apart. By 3:30 I had it back over there and ready to run. It went from the back of my truck right back into the press again to finish it's run. Tonight I'll have to get back to what I was working on this morning, and try and get caught up again. That's my niche. I'm a small shop (as in 1-man small), and flexible. I can drop everything to take care of an emergency, or work over a weekend to get something ready for Monday morning. I might also "goof-off" on a weekday when the rest of the world is working.

You provide a service. Probably a service no one else can provide or wants to provide. Recognize that service, and charge for it. I worked New Year's Eve and New Year's Day to get something built for a customer that was in a rush. I was thinking: " Wow, this thing is going to be expensive!" Then I looked left, right, and behind me, and didn't see anyone else waiting in line to take my place. So I just shut up, quit thinking, did the work, and wrote the bill. It is what it is. Sometimes I make real good money, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I have lots of work, sometimes I don't. All part of being self employed. It all averages out, and I do pretty good really. I'm usually too busy to work on any of my own projects, and have really learned to enjoy what little down time I have.

i have to ask??is the one off a part that keeps a $10 thing going??or a 5 million
dollar plant up and running? if its just a simple hand held shaft its hard to make
a buck on it..theres SOOO many guys out there bidding on these jobs.their splitting penny's to get the job.
another thing ive learned...dont be afraid to quote twice what you think its worth.
i rarely just quote..i like talking to the dude that needs the stuff...talk is still in.
youd be surprised what talk can get you.
find that niche Bro.

My company is in an interesting position right now. We're an in-house production shop, but recently the powers that be decided to take on some outside work. Now, we're exceedingly efficient at our in house products, but for alot of our people, that's about it. I was fortunate enough to work my way fairly quickly into a position dealing with prototypes and tooling, so I've had some practice at holding tight tolerances and getting turnaround times down on my jobs. There are a couple others there with the same capabilities, but alot of our guys are now caught in a position of having to learn the bare basics of machining after four years of button pushing. So on the whole we are not a very good job shop. We're learning, but we're not there yet.
The former machine shop manager took a special position dealing with all our outside work. He goes through an online service called emachineshop.com, which matches customers to shops with specific capabilities. One of our strong siuts is 2D CNC cutting, as we have a Trumpf laser/punch press and a waterjet. Most of the work we started out with was centered around these 2 machines. The tolerances were not that close and we were able to turn them around pretty quickly, but the money wasn't all that great. As we've ventured more into mill and lathe work, emachine has been very patient with us as we get our operators up to speed on job requirements that they have up til now not had to deal with.
And the jobs keep coming.
I'm sure there are many online services like the one we use; you might try one of them. Doom and gloom predictions notwithstanding, there seems to still be plenty of work out there.

Ahhh

So that's how emachineshop works. I use them (or someone else I guess) for laser cut stainless head badges. Cool site.


bb

A new business, in any classification, requires time for customers to develp trust. Rule of thumb is that a new vendor (you) has to call on a potential customer five times before the customer will even try your shop.

Referrals from other trusted shops make this go far more quickly ... if they don't have the time or skill, they'll often refer to you if you have a good relationship with them. I've gotten a lot of work from a larger fab shop that stays at 110% of capacity, and from other shops that don't have the ability to 'do it all'.

Beating the bushes is another time tested method to grow your business. One of my best customers didn't even know that I had a shop until I stopped in his business & gave him my card. Turns out he'd just lost his job shop source (retirement) and was looking for ... me

Lots of people will poo poo the Yellow Pages, but they are free if they bring in more than they cost, and my ads do that year after year.

It will happen, just takes longer than most people think.

I would consider investing in some type of cnc machine when you can. Production work, even in small quantities, is usually more cost effective on cnc's. And production-type work is the steady work you need to keep a stable backlog.

It is easier for a one man shop to bill more hours with a cnc. Often, the machine can run while you do something else.

Your customer's probably assume, since you are an all manual shop, that you can't handle their production requirements.

A few things, first, I hate yellow page ads, I can't count how much time I've lost answering the phone with some idiot asking how much to rebuild a cylinder head or a motor, or wants me for $3 to get a bolt out, they seem astonished that a machine shop doesn't work on engines, and that there is a lot of stuff made out of metal. Also, it takes me forever to find what I had in my hand when the phone rang (its usually next to the phone, still can't find it).

Then since you are in the phone book, you get all the traveling scrap guys that waste your time. Then you get the "inventor", that usually works out well, they want to talk your ear off, and when it comes down to price time and you tell them $3000 for a one off, $4200 for two or $6000 for five, they tell you their budget is $150. You just blew that talking to me. Plus they want you to model it, and do an FEA on it, with complete prints, and buy the material, though they have an axel shaft out back that might help out. What a waste of time.

I've only ever had one good lead from the yellow pages, and he only looked there after he went to a place he knew and they recommended us, and he used the yellow pages to get the phone #.

Then the survey calls come, the sales calls, etc...then all kinds of crap, I want to stay low key and under the radar.

I did get one good call, UniGraphics was doing a sweep of random shops across the country to see what was going on, and I got a call from one of the upper ups. Not a sales call. The best thing was I was going to buy Solid Edge about a month earlier, and the salesman was an ass. Lease deal, real cheap, all set up, and the salesman wouldn't call me back, I had more questions. When the lease guy called and asked why the papers hadn't been signed I told them, crappy service now, how bad is it going to be after they get money. The lease guy called the reseller, the salesman called me and we got into a nice good screaming match, I hungup on him. Long story short, one unemployed salesman. Totally off topic, but...






There is some good advice here, are you at least friendly with shops in your area? If you send some stuff their way, they will send stuff your way, even if they don't take it or can't handle it, they know you referred them, and vice-versa. As an ice-breaker, take on something you fictitiously(or actually) can't handle , look in the GOD FORBID yellow pages, make the rounds, talk to people, make some contacts, explain what you do, hand out cards and get them. Some places will suck, others you may like, some people like talking about it (I do) some don't. Heck make up a part and a print, something nasty that you definitely can't handle, and that you expect that most shops around you couldn't, buy the material, and go hunting. Do it again in 2 weeks, making sure they know that you are the real thing, do it for a living and this is something you can't do. Maybe? But having a good relationship with shops in your area can never hurt.


My thoughts on going to "production". I consider "production" to be high volume (and usually low dollar) 5000 plus pieces, or to me anything over a quantity of 1, I hate running parts. Production sucks, especially manually, even with CNCs it sucks, with employees its not too bad, but then the employees suck. I like to stay in the 1 to a 100 category(preferably 10-30). The BIG quantities is humping your nuts longer for less money, not fun.

One of these day I'm going to buy a replicator, so that I can make my preferred quantity of ONE, stick it in the replicator and be done with it.

You are already willing to touch the stuff that nobody else wants, so thats good, I'm not sure if its difficulty(oily beat up, welded crap) or complexity, but there is a bonus right there.

What you need is a government contractor, one of the small guys, they are out there, that pretty much don't make a damn thing for themselves, just buy and sell and coordinate. They need shops locally that do all kinds of stuff from assembly to riveting, to machining, coatings, heat treat, pressure testing. Our two main customers are like that, giant assemblys, due in 18 months, or 36 months, material starts rolling in, castings and what not, no hurry, do them when we can, as the due date starts coming up, things get in a hurry, expedite fees etc. Assembly is always a rush, all the parts are in and the ones that aren't (were not ordered) we get to make at big bucks. But the machine part is pretty lax on that stuff. It keeps it fun, quick turnarounds on some stuff, and slow on the other stuff, make some extra money not running machines and doing assemblies, riveting, coatings, heat treat. I've got 20 castings sitting here for the past 8 months, no hurry, $12000 for me, I'll do it when I get slow. I also have 5 finished castings waiting for more parts for assembly, so thats my suggestion.

Also direct gov work, not that hard to get set up. Most of the lead times are huge, but you have to furnish the parts complete, heat treats, coatings, and all that crap, so there is a bit of investment. The packaging is probably the worst, though if you find a company like the one above, you can get them to do it. Just don't take away a job/contract/part they have been doing for 20 years. Heck, get a gov job and go to a place like that for packaging, then they will know what you do and that are serious and get to see your work.

It takes some time to get setup, its not as bad as most make it out to be. you don't need to be ISO certified or even compliant for a lot of the smaller dollar stuff, but its a good windfall, long lead times, work on it when you have the time. From the time you look at the RFQ you know exactly when its due, very rarely is there a "rush", then you just ask for more money. On your bid give them 1/2% on 10 days on the bill, and its there in 10 days. Work on it when you are slow, do the other stuff when you aren't slow. Works for us. Just a suggestion.

I have been running my home shop fulltime for almost a year. Started off fairly slow but with one nice fabrication job on hand to carry me into the second month. I run an old TOS lathe, BP clone mill, and the normal small shop bandsaw, pedestal drill, abrasive cut off machine, 50T press, belt grinder etc. Also Mig, Tig and MMA welding gear, but I only take on fabrication in Stainless. When I built my shop I made allowance for reinforced columns and built a 3T overhead crane myself. Headroom is really tight but a rig can reverse into my shop and I can offload as long as the load is at the back of the trailer.

A but of luck, a few contacts, and some serious effort to provide acceptable quality, for a reasonable price, ON TIME, has resulted in half a dozen regular customers who give me all of their work and don't even ask for quotes! I bet some of you will think, he must be working for nothing if they don't bother with quotes, but I'm pretty comfortable with my pricing and occasionally have to chat to a customer to satisfy him that the job he thought was a 30 min breeze actually required 3 set-ups on 3 different machines, and 7 different processes and therefore the price is what it is. Most work is one-offs, breakdown part repairs etc. so I don't even think production.

I am so busy that I genuinely turn away new customers, unless they are in trouble, breakdown situation and can't find help. I work every day, weekends, holidays, any hours that suit me, but then I have no problem taking some time for myself, also whenever it suits me. So someone will see me riding my mare out towards the woods at 8 in the morning and think "That bloke isn't trying very hard at his business", but he wasn't in my shop at 2am while I was finishing off the job I had promised for the morning.

I love the life, get enormous satisfaction and wouldn't change it.

Personally I don't touch repair work. What I usually try to get is the higher quantity work that isn't quite worth putting on CNC's but that is also a high enough quantity that most manual shops don't want to touch it. I don't mind standing at a machine all week making the same little parts, quantities are anywhere between 1 and 2000, but for the most part its a 50-500range. Preferably work under 1" diameter and tolerances to a couple tenths are fine. But its a pretty fine line where its still a manual job and not cnc, mostly just because the right type of cnc for it isn't around here(as far as I know). I eventually want to have that machine but I don't have the place to put it, or the $ or the work to justify it yet. If I can't get them to send enough stuff to keep my manual machine busy, I can't expect enough work to keep a 150K cnc going. But that is the eventual goal, to have a little cnc or 2 running beside me to keep me company while I do the manual work. I do have some variety as I do tig welding and some small fabrications so either way theres always a bit of work coming in. I just need more of the normal production work, or something. Just gotta keep moving forward somehow. I like it when I have a little pile of drawings and can just stand at the machine all day long. Ah well, today I'm working on my own projects and may even start looking at building a website this weekend. It is a little hard really starting to build products not knowing if it will ever sell or catch on. All part of the gamble I guess. Gonna start with the easy ideas first before getting into the specialized widgets that require more investment

As to the yellow pages, my name is being taken out of it next time they print it even if its a free add. I haven't made a cent from it, only getting solicitor calls and such so in a sense I lose on the time they make me waste. I did get a couple calls about "can you bore my lawn mower engine so it goes faster" and I just referred to other shops.

SND said:

Personally I don't touch repair work. What I usually try to get is the higher quantity work that isn't quite worth putting on CNC's but that is also a high enough quantity that most manual shops don't want to touch it. I don't mind standing at a machine all week making the same little parts, quantities are anywhere between 1 and 2000, but for the most part its a 50-500range. Preferably work under 1" diameter and tolerances to a couple tenths are fine.

Click to expand...

man, SND, I wish I could locate my shop right next door to yours....we'd both make out like bandits.
I love doing those odd, greasy, broken, no-clue-what-the-origional-dimensions-were type repair jobs, and absolutely DESPISE production work....

I did a couple months of repair and quickly learned it wasn't for me. I like the nice drawings with GD&T, nothing left to the unexpected. Easier to quote, I wouldn't know how to quote repair work. It always seemed to turn into a whole lot more work then expected and never got enough $ out of it. There would likely be more money in fixing real equipment for real companies I guess than fixing things for people off the street. But I'm not set up for it at all.

SND, I dont fixed quote repair work, I just say " I can start right now. my rate will be xxx $ per hour" time and materials.

the "START RIGHT NOW" part will catch the ones you want. the other penny pinchers you don't want anyway.

SND,
Versatility or Niche market or both. Only you can make that decision.

Although a machinist by trade I decided on a different direction when I went into business. Our area is flooded with machine shops. We have them from manufacturers with extra hours used for subcontract work down to small 1 & 2 man shop. In between are all the rest.

I went the Fabrication route. There always seemed to be a lack of shops that could make a good quality machinable fabrication. In our area we have weld shops and sheet metal shops but very few fabrication shops that could make an accurate motor adapter or machine bed. Also in our area are a few big manufacturing companies with good in-house machine shops but non-existent fabrication shops. My shop started in that niche and it remains a big part of our work.

Your question was how to get more steady production work. Our shops are very different but here are the things that worked for us.

1. Seek out manufacturers that contract out parts which are a part of their product line. These companies mostly stay with a design for awhile and every time their product sells they need your parts. A cardboard box manufacturer will want you to make parts for their equipment but a tractor manufacturer will want parts for their sales line.

2. Analyze the buyer you are dealing with. To some price is everything. To others it's the relationship. All of them have a boss and a big work load. If you can get it "off their desk" and have it finished in time with no issues they will send more work even if your price is a little high. A buyer will usually not deal with the cheapest vendor if it means a hassle each time.

3. Do what you are best at and turn away or sub out the rest. We love heavy steel. 1/4" plate is sheet metal to us. Our CNC Torch/Plasma sees lots of 3/4" to 6" plate. If we get under 1/4" to work with we subcontract it out.

4. Develop a great relationship with other vendors. A guy like 77Ironhead is a great asset. We sub out almost all our CNC machine work. We use the same vendors and stay very loyal. They in turn sub out the fabrication and T/C to us.

5. Don't shy away from taking your shop in unexpected directions. We started with fabrication and general machining. At present a big part of our work is field repairs and ornamental iron work. Both pay fine. A good field crew can make you lots of money once the customers know they can trust the work. It wasn't part of the "plan" when I started but....

6. You may dislike repair work but how about rebuilds and refurbishing. would you turn down a chance to bore out and sleeve 10,000 widget cams?

7. Think outside the box. You like CNC work so do you only buy CNC machines. If you had a small shaper in your shop could you put it to use? How about a small punch press?

Anyway, this are just a few ideas that may (or may not) help.

Walter A.

SND said:

I did a couple months of repair and quickly learned it wasn't for me. I like the nice drawings with GD&T, nothing left to the unexpected. Easier to quote, I wouldn't know how to quote repair work. It always seemed to turn into a whole lot more work then expected and never got enough $ out of it. There would likely be more money in fixing real equipment for real companies I guess than fixing things for people off the street. But I'm not set up for it at all.

Click to expand...

Some of my most profitable work is repair work. But you're right, it does take the right kind of person to do it. Lots of thinking about how to get something working correctly again, without wasting too much valuable time. When a company calls me with a machine that's broke down, that's an open wound that's gushing money at the rate of $xxx/hour. I get called to stop that gushing as quick as possible, usually no matter what it takes. I rarely quote that work, other than maybe a quick ballpark number. I've worked on equipment used in printing, bakeries, cabinet shops, excavating, and many others; besides my usual plastic injection molding and robotics type work. Seems like anything that spins, turns, or moves eventually quits spinning, turning, or moving. Trick is to be able to repair it so it's owner can get back to making money again.

You will need to expand in order to get the production jobs.Your customers don't have the confidence in you YET.Without expanding and if you are somewhat busy now how would you manage time for production work ? Repair work is a good niche,our shop we hardly ever will do this and will reccomend a shop that is more suited for this as we are set up for production.Keep on your customers to let you at least quote a prodcution job.Once you have given them a quote try to feel them out as to how your quote compared to there current supplier.If you are somewhat close in pricing you might be able to do the jobs manually but if you are way high will you need to purchase some machines to make you competative.Get that first production run,have good quality and be on time and they will open the door's for you.Grow slowly and steady.

I do know that there is a couple places who can't send me their normal production work because I'm not ISO. Its too bad, although I do follow calibration schedule and such. Most of my customers do have their normal products that are made in pretty high quantity. Perhaps its just been easier to keep sending it to the same shops that have it somewhat figured out. Hard to break into that circle of things.

I don't plan to get any cnc's until theres the space to put them(aka, new house and shop), and they can be bought cash. I really don't want to take on debt just to hope to get more work, mostly if in the end after all the bills are paid I'll have less $ in my pocket then I do now. Plus theres plenty of cnc shops around undercutting each other, and it does happen fairly often that I tell customers that some work would be more suited for those machines but even if I had the machine to do it, doesn't mean I'd get the job, or that I'd make any $ on it. Although I do need to try to get a better vertical mill this summer coming as this has been a problem. Ah well, time will tell and if I stay a quick turn around shop and only that then I'll just make sure to charge enough. I have started raising the prices for it as I came to the conclusion that a 4 hour of machining job usually turns into a whole day after all the talking, delivery and such and so now when I look at 1 part that is a rush I usually charge close to a whole days $ if I figure 3-4hours of machining time on it.
Sure beats having a day job anyway I look at it

I am a machine designer that works for a several machine builders in Southern Ontario. Send me some info and I will forward it to the shops I work for, they have no CNC machines.

Stan
[email protected]

Instead of buying a better manual mill think of something like the Tree 325s that Dan Sergison and I have. Even just a 2 axis machine could save you time on things like bolt hole circles or arrays, anything that needs a radius or 5 cut on it etc. If you've got probing it's a snap to find the center of a boss or hole, or just clamp something to the table and probe a side and do a coordinate system rotation so you don't have to mess with trying to get it aligned to the machine's axis.

If you need a 3-6" hole in something you don't have to drag out the rotary table or slowly step a hole out with a boring head. If you need to face something use a facing cycle instead of running power feed and coming back to offset the cutter and feed it back the other direction.

If you are doing production stuff on a manual mill you don't have enclosures or ATCs so having a CNC knee mill (or maybe you can get an open bed mill) isn't disadvantaging you by not having them either (though they'd be nice for big production stuff). If you are doing a mix of very short run stuff and repair/one-off stuff a CNC mill may actually be of more use to you than a VMC would be.

And if you do get some repeat work you've got the program handy to load the next time the job comes in.

I guess what machines you need is going to vary with the mix of work you get. Something that helps to automate the very commonplace actvities might pay for itself pretty quickly. 10-15 minutes saved 3-5 times a day starts to add up over a couple of weeks time.

Not having to lift a 90lbf rotary table on and off the mill table is pretty nice too!

cheers,
Michael

I had been extremely close to buying a Tormach cnc mill but heard of a bunch of "real" cnc mills being bought around here at that time so I changed my mind at the last minute and got a Cyclematic toolroom lathe. Its what I really need to get more work for and I've been telling customers that its what I'm specializing in. Small lathe work, I know its there, but its not coming very fast so I guess I must push harder to get it steady. If I can manage to just keep busy enough with that I'd be real happy and would wait until I can get more space in a few years before I get any more equipment. Up side is right now I'm making some of my own things on that little toolroom lathe and if it sells then great but it'll take a few weeks before I figure that out. Its not as if I'm starving or anything, I do turn around a fair amount of work as it is. It just hard to see things far ahead. I did ask a few customers before about what processes they really needed more service in to decide what machine to buy but I didn't get much feedback. It's like, buy it and then we'll see... its a bit much of a gamble and I know that people got bitten that way before. Which is why I only buy when the cash is in the bank.

A cnc knee mill would indeed be a nice step ahead, but any mill I bring in here has to be taken apart into as many pieces as possible so the cnc controls and such may be a bit of a problem for me in this case as I don't know much about it. I'll certainly take a good look at that when the time comes. Space is a big issue, but the current little mill I have limits me very much and I'm turning a lot of work away because of it. No matter what, theres just never enough equipment to do everything but a couple products I have in mind would be much easier to do in a cnc knee mill for sure.