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Quoting lead times for small run prototype style parts - Complex

What is your quoted lead time?


  • Total voters
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dstryr

Diamond
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Location
Nampa Idaho
For the last 12 months or so we have been bombarded with companies who are asking us to deliver 3+2 style parts within ridiculous short periods of time. Most of the time they are constantly asking for parts delivered between 1-2 weeks. I think engineers are starting to get spoiled by these chinese RFQ sites where you can upload a part and it shows up in a week from china or similar.

If you are doing low volume complicated parts (doesn't have to be 5 axis style work but please dont include flat parts with 2/3 operations with basic features) what are you quoting for lead time on a normal basis? I'm trying to see if I have just lost touch since we have grown large and have too many machines to control with only 2 of us programming / doing complex prototype style jobs.
 
. I think engineers are starting to get spoiled by these chinese RFQ sites where you can upload a part and it shows up in a week from china or similar.
.
You can do that too, just send shitty parts like the Chinese and others do. The only difference will be they will complain to you and possibly sue, when it comes from China like that they don't seem so bothered.
 
All depends on what it is. 75% of what I do is "we need this friday" type work, and a lot of times I have to design it as well. That particular customer doesn't require a quote, time and material.
 
This is really two different questions.

The first being what others' lead times are being quoted as and, the second being if you are bollocks and have lost touch. To which I answer 6 - 8 weeks ( with accommodations for certain customers or circumstances ), and yes.
:cool:

Example, we have a few customers out by you that routinely call or write with parts that normally take a few days to make after being able to get to them, but want their parts in one or two days. Normally, anyone would tell them to sod off. However, they actually understand what it takes, and pay for the privilege. There are rush fees and overtime fees, and the parts are charged at premium. The down side is that it does add a certain amount of chaos to the work flow and the parts had damn well better be spot on. Not just right. SPOT ON. Works for us. I'm happy to do what we can.

Some times, though... It's simply not going to happen. They want premium parts in immediacy, at commodity pricing. "Here's your quote, let us know if we can help", and we move along queuing up the next job.

Example, buying in to the abuses of others' mental instabilities and playing the left coast short game, while constantly smelling like garlic? Bollocks. Yer soft in the bucket. :scratchchin:

:D
 
We work exclusively in areospace, so almost all of our parts have 2-4 subcontract operations. But typical lead time is 12-14 weeks for the first run. If there is no subcontract 8 weeks is typical.
 
Are these real customers?

People I don't know asking me to quote 1 difficult part on short lead time?

I don't think so.

Oh, one thing I learned years ago, when someone gets you thinking about how you are going to get the job done in a hurry, you stop thinking about if you are going to get paid

real customers want to know as much about you as you want to know about them
 
D - I thought to clarify - The "6-8 weeks" is not due to the parts. That's strictly due to our work load. As in, we are booked out 6-8 weeks. If we were not, then I would have to say it would be in the 2-4 weeks range, possibly the 2 weeks range. One of the other contributors here though, is that with real prototyping it is not at all uncommon for a part to become updated WHILE we are working on it. This happens more than people might think and happened again just last week. Customer called as we were taking the parts out of the turning center. He wanted to make sure we had not made them yet because they had discovered a flaw and had updated the CAD and print. No problem at all. I'll just toss it in the scrap bin... You are still bollocks, though. :)
 
This is really two different questions.

The first being what others' lead times are being quoted as and, the second being if you are bollocks and have lost touch. To which I answer 6 - 8 weeks ( with accommodations for certain customers or circumstances ), and yes.
:cool:

Example, we have a few customers out by you that routinely call or write with parts that normally take a few days to make after being able to get to them, but want their parts in one or two days. Normally, anyone would tell them to sod off. However, they actually understand what it takes, and pay for the privilege. There are rush fees and overtime fees, and the parts are charged at premium. The down side is that it does add a certain amount of chaos to the work flow and the parts had damn well better be spot on. Not just right. SPOT ON. Works for us. I'm happy to do what we can.

Some times, though... It's simply not going to happen. They want premium parts in immediacy, at commodity pricing. "Here's your quote, let us know if we can help", and we move along queuing up the next job.

Example, buying in to the abuses of others' mental instabilities and playing the left coast short game, while constantly smelling like garlic? Bollocks. Yer soft in the bucket. :scratchchin:

:D

D - I thought to clarify - The "6-8 weeks" is not due to the parts. That's strictly due to our work load. As in, we are booked out 6-8 weeks. If we were not, then I would have to say it would be in the 2-4 weeks range, possibly the 2 weeks range. One of the other contributors here though, is that with real prototyping it is not at all uncommon for a part to become updated WHILE we are working on it. This happens more than people might think and happened again just last week. Customer called as we were taking the parts out of the turning center. He wanted to make sure we had not made them yet because they had discovered a flaw and had updated the CAD and print. No problem at all. I'll just toss it in the scrap bin... You are still bollocks, though. :)

As a builder I try really hard not to need this done.
That said, when I need it I understand I’m getting in the way.
Times long past when shops were standing around and you could walk in any door.
If I need something short lead I start with that element.

Hi Bob,
I need something by...
Can you give me a quote with the expedite fee if you can get it done by then.
Thanks.

Also, remember some shops specialize in ‘flexibility’.
I never ask the big production shops to do short quick stuff, they just aren’t configured for it.

Then there are things that are really specialty items, gears come to mind.
For that, as a buyer, you hope you can find a place that can get it in inbetween scheduled work..and be prepared to pay for that.
The shop will need to bump some other scheduled job, work over time maybe.
Shop owners aren’t just standing at the door waiting for me to walk up.

Any how...that’s what it looks like to me from the other side of the counter.

OP...
It may very well be that your shop is no longer configured to compete I. That sector. Maybe decide if you want to be doing that as well as longer runs. Perhaps you are right, maybe you have out grown that business sector.
 
OP...
It may very well be that your shop is no longer configured to compete I. That sector. Maybe decide if you want to be doing that as well as longer runs. Perhaps you are right, maybe you have out grown that business sector.

Maybe you are right.... We do a lot of difficult jobs that many shops don't want to or cant do (especially aerospace 1 off parts out of 60 lb blocks of titanium that finish at 3 lbs for example) and some of our customers will wait 6-8 weeks because I don't think anyone else even returns a quote. I have 16 machines, 6 of them being 5 axis ranging from 30-75 pallet cells to 30 tool single table but there is only two of us here who actually manage the setup / programming / process on parts. I'd say our workload is split 50% of long run high volume, 40% 1-3 pc orders , and 10% of 4-250 pcs. Most of the time people come to us because they want 1000 parts or they want 1-2.

I love doing one offs but I don't really love working 70 hours a week anymore and especially don't like working under the gun all the time. One thing goes wrong and the customer is pissed, I'm working until 11pm or later. My family and life suffers... its just not worth it anymore I guess.
 
Are these real customers?

People I don't know asking me to quote 1 difficult part on short lead time?

I don't think so.

Oh, one thing I learned years ago, when someone gets you thinking about how you are going to get the job done in a hurry, you stop thinking about if you are going to get paid

real customers want to know as much about you as you want to know about them

50% of the time they are repeat customers
50% of the time they are referrals from other customers

Going to spend the weekend thinking about if streamlining to reduce lead times is feasible / make sense for us.

Last year was my best year by 2x last (last year was the best by 2x the year before) but 2018 has started with some issues. We have work but nothing like 2017. Maybe that's a good thing? Idk yet.
 
Maybe you are right.... We do a lot of difficult jobs that many shops don't want to or cant do (especially aerospace 1 off parts out of 60 lb blocks of titanium that finish at 3 lbs for example) and some of our customers will wait 6-8 weeks because I don't think anyone else even returns a quote. I have 16 machines, 6 of them being 5 axis ranging from 30-75 pallet cells to 30 tool single table but there is only two of us here who actually manage the setup / programming / process on parts. I'd say our workload is split 50% of long run high volume, 40% 1-3 pc orders , and 10% of 4-250 pcs. Most of the time people come to us because they want 1000 parts or they want 1-2.

I love doing one offs but I don't really love working 70 hours a week anymore and especially don't like working under the gun all the time. One thing goes wrong and the customer is pissed, I'm working until 11pm or later. My family and life suffers... its just not worth it anymore I guess.

Sounds like time to hire.
 
Sounds like time to hire.

Bay area, 5 axis machinist who can / will program in NX, setup his own parts/machines, and isn't working at apple,facebook,google,etc,etc is a unicorn.

Lots of talkers and people who think they know what they are doing.... one mistake could cost me $30-70k.
 
This may be enlightening. I went to MDD&M last fall and brought back a stack of 30 business cards for Swiss shops. I had eleven Swiss parts for a prototype assembly I needed made fast (I made the mill parts in-house), asked for six of each and best lead time. Here's the results, names omitted:

Swiss Lead.jpg

I went with the 16-18 business day shop. They made their lead time but quality was poor, went with the shop above it for the next batch and quality was excellent.


Edit:
That's awful hard to read. Here's a cut and paste, though formatting sux:

NDA Received Sent RFQ Quote Returned Promised lead Cost/6

11/14/2017 11/14/2017
11/13/2017 11/13/2017

11/10/2017 11/13/2017
11/9/2017 11/13/2017
11/9/2017 11/13/2017 11/17/2017 8 Weeks, only 6/11 Pc $24,996 want to bill $7k for buying rotary for wire
11/13/2017 11/13/2017
11/9/2017 11/13/2017
11/9/2017 11/13/2017
11/13/2017 11/13/2017 11/18/2017 No bid No bid

Previously 11/13/2017 11/18/2017 No bid No bid
12/8/2017

11/9/2017

11/15/2017 11/16/2017 11/20/2017 No bid No bid
11/16/2017 11/16/2017
9-11 Weeks 5/11 parts
Previously 11/13/2017 Re-sent 11/20/17
11/13/2017 11/13/2017
11/9/2017 11/13/2017
11/14/2017 11/14/2017


11/10/2017 11/13/2017 11/20/2017 6-8 Weeks $23,769 No grabber
11/13/2017 11/13/2017 11/17/2017 No bid No bid
11/9/2017 11/13/2017
11/9/2017 11/13/2017 11/21/2017 7 Weeks $34,746
Previously 11/13/2017 11/16/2017 8 Weeks $14,651
11/8/2017 11/13/2017 11/15/2017 16-18 Bus. Days $16,215 PO 11/21/2017

11/20/2017 Dec 18th $39,950

So out of around 30 shops, some never returned the NDA, about half never responded to the RFQ, and some no-bid, leaving four complete quotes, one omitting the hardest part, and two quoting around half the parts. Yes, some of the parts are tricky and finicky, but I still found this surprising. Also some didn't get their quotes to me until after I'd already placed the order with the fast shop.
 
Semi hijack -

mhajicek - I tried responding to your note several times now, but PM seems to be having DB issues. I also tried sending directly as new, but same result. If you use the email feature, I can respond directly that way. Thank you.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion between shop owners and garlic cloves....
 
real customers want to know as much about you as you want to know about them

While often true, I wouldn't discount a customer for not asking too many questions. I've had times where I'm in a pinch and my usual shops can't accommodate me. If I get a good recommendation from someone I trust, I may only have three questions for you: can you do it, when, and how much. If you weren't a good shop, he wouldn't have recommended you to me. I'll do a shop visit and learn more about you once the current fire has been put out.
 
I'm usually on the other side of the table on this one. Here are some (hopefully) relevant thoughts on the matter:

1) Do they want them in 1 week or need them in 1 week? There are times when you need something fast and are willing to pay for it. There are others where you want it in 1 week, but you'll make 4-8 weeks work. One example I remember was a sheet metal part. I think I had two of them made for about $80 each. A while later we managed to destroy one of them in a testing mishap. Without that part, the entire project would be delayed. I called the local shop that specialized in getting sheet metal done fast. He handed a part to me the next day, charged me $850 and I was happy to pay it.

2) Communication is key, especially with new customers or referrals. If you're out 10 weeks right now, but you're usually in the 4-6 week range, tell me that. If I've been referred to you, it's because you're a good shop. If you leave me thinking that 10 weeks is your normal lead time, I may not bother even calling you next time if I can't afford 10 weeks. The same thing goes for throwing a stupid-high number on something. Some shops will throw high prices on jobs when they're busy. That's great in the short term, but if I go away thinking you're just over-priced, that's not good.

I'm pretty sure there's no easy solution to running a shop that can do everything. Quick-turn prototype work, regular job shop work, and production work are very different and don't always play well together.
 
There are companies like ProtoMold who do machining also. I actually use them a bit for some rush things. Typically 3-6 days, can have them in 3 days if you want to pay. But......it's expensive, even for "normal lead time" parts.
 
I love doing one offs but I don't really love working 70 hours a week anymore and especially don't like working under the gun all the time. One thing goes wrong and the customer is pissed, I'm working until 11pm or later. My family and life suffers... its just not worth it anymore I guess.


I liked the challenging jobs.


Took me awhile to realize that while I liked them...IT was BLOOD money.

They disrupt the flow of the shop.

While we can make a good amount on Challenge jobs, we lose in having to make up time on the jobs pushed aside, OT. Run a 70 hour week or two or three knocks the hell out of me so I am definitely not back on my game for good while.
I also hear I am not the most pleasurable person to be around while in the midst of things.

For those reasons and more...I have learned to say no more often then not.
Still a couple squeak there way in...sometimes a good customer...a potential customer or the "hmmm...did I really just say yes to that?"

Shops seems to do better when focused on what we do as a whole well.
 








 
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