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Rating me as an employee.

mancavedweller

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Wondering where you experienced shop owners would place me (i.e. as an employee) at this point in time. I'm relatively new to this game and have had a whopping 4 full months of work in an engineering job shop. OK, stop laughing.

Prior to this I was running my own small excavation business, and prior to that I was an electrician on both offshore and onshore oil/gas well drilling rigs.

So how the hell did I get a position in a job shop. Well the owner knew me from social circles and we'd often discuss (more like argue LOL) mainly about CNC plasma, and other engineering stuff. I've built my own cnc plasma table, bought a big lathe and mill, and self taught myself everything I know from forums, web searching, Youtube, and mainly old school books. The shop owner offered me a job because he thought I had the right attitude to do OK in his shop. He knew I did all my own repairs/maintenance - line boring, stripping down hydraulic motors/pumps, rebuilding hydraulic rams, complete slew ring changeout (excavator), built a plant trailer, etc.

Anyway, apart from sweeping the floor and deburring parts when needed, I do some basic work on the manual lathes, and the milling machines. I've got to the stage of running two cnc milling machines and one cnc lathe. So what do I mean by "running" them ?

CNC LATHE:
Well I'm not doing the programming except for some basic programming at the cnc lathe itself. Example, writing a stock removal program for turning soft jaws, or doing internal/external turning, and facing. I did play with making a threaded cone and it simulated good.
I'll install suitable jaws, turn soft jaws to suit the job, calibrate the jaw positions.
Program the auto bar feeder, and set up the bushings in the lathe spindle to suit the bar diameter.
Typically the boss will give me a drawing which has the file name. I load the program, find all the tools needed, remove and install tools in the turret, update the tool table, and measure all the newly installed tools with the probe.
Where the chuck jaws extend outward from the main chuck diameter, I'll manually bring various tools (i.e. the turret) up to the chuck and hand turn the chuck to test for possible tool crashing during machining.
Then I'll touch off the part and update program zero (or the offset from program zero whichever it may be in the program).
Once all that's done I run the first part "very carefully", with my two hands on the stop button and the feedrate/rapid dial.
Once the parts are in production, I'm measuring them, monitoring for surface finish, correct dimensions, etc, and adjusting tool wear offset as necessary. Using verniers, micrometer, telescopic bore gauges, dial bore gauges.
As necessary I'll pause the program and change out worn/stuffed inserts. If it's a finishing insert I'll completely stop the program, re-measure the insert, back off the tool wear offset, re-start the program from where it left off, then check the next part dimensions to see what tool wear offset may need re-adjusting. Typically, because I've backed off the tool wear offset the part will be slightly oversized and then I can adjust tool wear and start the program from that point again.

CNC MILLS
Fairly similar to the lathe, except I'm loading/unload tools in the magazines, and setting program zero is done with the probes after reading the "blank forms" (Heidenhain) in the program for the X, Y and Z program positions.
Also, I don't do any programming on the mills, the boss does all that.

I don't really get to learn much "real stuff" on the manual machines because the old guy we have does most of that and if I have a moment to spare the boss has me doing some other task between the cnc part runs, even if it's just tidying up. Sometimes, I'm running 2 of the CNCs and doing basic stuff on the manual lathe or mill in between. Ha ha, I bought a kitchen timer so I could sit it next to me while I'm doing the other stuff and I'll know exactly when a part is about to finish in the CNC. I wish I could spend some time learning "real" manual techniques from the old guy.

And a bit off topic but I also did fix one of the cnc mills when it stopped working. The main cycle start button had stuffed up so removed the circuit board and swapped the stuffed PCB button out for one of the unused ones (I play with electronics/microcontrollers too and make my own PCBs).

Of course I'm still always irritating my boss with newbie questions (it's all go go in this shop) about things I want to understand, and I realise I'm only just scratching the surface with this game, but where would you shop owners place me as an employee (I'm guessing apprentice level).

Due to my lack of experience in this game, am I pretty much still considered a button pushing monkey, and only much good for floor sweeping and deburring, outside of basic cnc running.
 
Well you talk too much, that's clear. :)

It sounds like you're an operator that is learning basic setup. What's your question? Does it really matter to you what your job description is?

I wish I could spend some time learning "real" manual techniques from the old guy.
So pay your old guy in beer or lunch or whatever to teach you after hours. Buy yourself a shitty $200 "lathe" and have him show you around if you don't have access to your work equipment. Grind your own tools just so you understand how tooling effects everything. There are a gazillion videos on youtube showing basics of manual and CNC stuff.

If your boss is unwilling to help you learn, then the ball is in your court.

EDIT: When I was a young welder, I wanted to learn how to TIG weld but, like you now, we were too busy for that during working hours and nobody wanted to stay late to help me. I sold my dirt bike and bought 3 books and a brand new Miller Syncrowave 180. I had to put it in my parents garage, but I was there every night practicing. When I would run in to something I couldn't solve with my books (this is pre-youtube), I would take my samples in to work and bug the shit out of the older guys during lunch. Worked like a charm and it cost less and took less time than a school course would have.
 
Sounds good for the 4 month mark, my concern would be longer term, you sound like your going to be bored out of you brain there in under 5 years time, hell maybe bored in under 2 years.
 
Well you talk too much, that's clear. :)

It sounds like you're an operator that is learning basic setup. What's your question? Does it really matter to you what your job description is?

So pay your old guy in beer or lunch or whatever to teach you after hours. Buy yourself a shitty $200 "lathe" and have him show you around if you don't have access to your work equipment. Grind your own tools just so you understand how tooling effects everything. There are a gazillion videos on youtube showing basics of manual and CNC stuff.

If your boss is unwilling to help you learn, then the ball is in your court.

EDIT: When I was a young welder, I wanted to learn how to TIG weld but, like you now, we were too busy for that during working hours and nobody wanted to stay late to help me. I sold my dirt bike and bought 3 books and a brand new Miller Syncrowave 180. I had to put it in my parents garage, but I was there every night practicing. When I would run in to something I couldn't solve with my books (this is pre-youtube), I would take my samples in to work and bug the shit out of the older guys during lunch. Worked like a charm and it cost less and took less time than a school course would have.

Ha ha, sorry if I talked your ear off Matt. Thanks for the input.

Not looking for a job description, they are often a joke, more just wondering if employers in this game would see me as having any worth at all, or if most (all ??) wouldn't touch me with a barge pole.

As I mentioned in my opening post, I have a large lathe & mill, & some other goodies. Took out a 5 year loan at the beginning of the GFC to pay for it all. Plus have probably spent about $2K in books and videos.

I have haunted the web, Youtube, etc A LOT over the years for a great many things I've been learning, not just machining stuff. I could give you a long list of all the different things I've been into but like you say I talk too much :)

Cheers,

Keith.
 
Sounds good for the 4 month mark, my concern would be longer term, you sound like your going to be bored out of you brain there in under 5 years time, hell maybe bored in under 2 years.

Good point Adama, you've got me thinking because what you say is probably already starting to happen.

In the beginning, the CNCs were really whoopy doo, but I'm finding as I do it longer you get used to all that, and it gets a bit repetitive. Overall it's starting to feel like a hard working job, always working against the clock, yet not great pay. I'm finding as I'm there longer, I'm becoming the CNC guy while the older guy is primarily on the manual machines. Never thought I'd be missing the manual machine work.

Don't ever see myself being involved with the part programming, cad work, etc.

I do my own backyard stuff at home and I find it very stimulating because I do the whole process from thinking about what I am going to make, to drawing it in either 2D cad or 3D solid modelling, then to the cam, and finally to the cnc plasma. That latter may sound basic but my brain is always ticking for improvements to my home built table to increase throughput / efficiency. Already have a bunch of them planned. Even the cam is stimulating, working out sequence of cuts, chain cutting, blah, blah. And then of course there's the "precision" stuff that I'll do on the lathe and mill, or welding up something, the list goes on.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Keith.
 
Why not? Its the truly skilled part of the cnc job. That said cads as boring as hell after the first 6 months!

What I meant was I don't see the boss ever involving me with that side of the work, that seems to be the part of the business he does and it wouldn't pay him to teach me that. After all there needs to be an operator running the CNC machines, so it would be counterproductive for him. Heck, half the time when I'm asking questions about the cnc machines his main concern is just starting them running so parts can be made, and my questions don't get answered. Not knocking him for that, it's just the way it seems it has to be or he won't make enough money.

I am interested in the cad side. Had a seat of the 3D solid modeling software Alibre Design since about 2009, and kept up maintenance until last year. I bought it for making attachments when I had the excavation business, buts it's came in useful for other goodies.
 
I do my own backyard stuff at home and I find it very stimulating because I do the whole process from thinking about what I am going to make, to drawing it in either 2D cad or 3D solid modelling, then to the cam, and finally to the cnc plasma. That latter may sound basic but my brain is always ticking for improvements to my home built table to increase throughput / efficiency. Already have a bunch of them planned. Even the cam is stimulating, working out sequence of cuts, chain cutting, blah, blah. And then of course there's the "precision" stuff that I'll do on the lathe and mill, or welding up something, the list goes on.

I reckon youll be walking down the self employed road sooner than later talking like this. Really sounds like you wana sale your own ship :)
 
Sounds to me that you worry to much about what everyone else thinks, when you should be thinking about you want to be doing. I did the same thing when I was 18 to 22.

It also sound to me, you will be wanting to start your own business soon enough.

You say you took a loan out for $X and spent 2k in books. When in reality you could have gotten a second job working part time for slave money just for the experience. I learned to do this myself when I was 15. I learned to do roofing, siding, construction, and a lot just from being a hard working little shit that will work for pennies.

My advice is to take it all in from the bottom. Learn how everything is going on from why you are doing what your doing to how many people are doing what jobs to why use different machines for different jobs etc... My biggest regret in my business life, is that I learned sooooo much about how to do a good job in business, that I forgot to learn what it takes to run a good business. Like who to hire for paperwork, salesman, and how to do the stupid jobs.



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^ Thats were i sorta got lucky, my last job pre self employment was customer facing as a service tech, hence i got to see all of that side of the jobs but from a position were i was more a fly on the wall than either a salesman or responsible for it, though as a techs you very much are in the middle at times too.

Whilst it did not teach me the account side, it did make it clear how you win and keep customers loyalty wise, its a whole side you don't get to see from most roles in this trade and it is important. The more differing jobs you can have over the pre self employment years the more rounded you can become and self employed your wearing all the hats and juggling all those things at once. Hence it really helps to have that width to your life experiences, not just a decade or 2 in the one trade - the one job role as that will leave you badly stuck if you chose to go it alone in way too many differing ways that you just would not see - know - be able to imagine.
 
Not looking for a job description, they are often a joke, more just wondering if employers in this game would see me as having any worth at all, or if most (all ??) wouldn't touch me with a barge pole.
A growing trend among shop owners that I've been talking to, both on this site and my local area, is to hire for attitude and hope that person takes to the trade. I would encourage you to learn all you can from your current employer (and that sounds about maxed out now), then take your time and find another job where you can learn more. Don't worry so much about exactly what you know now, just show prospective employers you're hungry to learn and have taken steps on your own to further your career.

As I mentioned in my opening post, I have a large lathe & mill, & some other goodies. Took out a 5 year loan at the beginning of the GFC to pay for it all. Plus have probably spent about $2K in books and videos.
Shit, I missed it. Sorry, and good on ya. Simply based on this quote, I'd hire you in a second.
 
A growing trend among shop owners that I've been talking to, both on this site and my local area, is to hire for attitude and hope that person takes to the trade.

Shit, I missed it. Sorry, and good on ya. Simply based on this quote, I'd hire you in a second.

I think that's what happened with my boss and myself. I believe he may have had a run of unsuitable (but "qualified") guys and they didn't last long there. Here in Australia the "qualified" thing seems quite rampant. I once applied for a job requiring only stick welding and manual lathe skills, but didn't get a foot in the door because the client wanted a qualified mechanic :nutter:

Ha ha, thanks for the job offer Matt, you're making me blush. How long will it take me to drive to work from Melbourne, Australia.

Everyone else, thanks for the input. I think I'm still "business traumatised" from my excavation business. At the end of it I was literally hating many customers. The way the hourly hire industry works here, they can crap all over you and if you don't like it, they simply go elsewhere. Finally spat the dummy and chatted to some telecom guys on a job site and had a job after a phone call. In a job I'm at least enjoying not being scared (financially, liability, etc) all the time. Hopefully I can make some reasonable top up cash with my toys at home after work.
 
If I read right,you are a qualified electrician,so why would you want to get involved with engineering,which is going downhill very quickly in Oz.?

Because here in Australia the governing electrical body, whoever they are, proclaim themselves to have the highest standards in the world (I believe those in charge wear jeweled crowns on their heads). I'm from the UK and my apprenticeship was with a giant petrochemical company called ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries). After that I spent 1.5 years with a power generation company in Singapore, and a total of 8.5 years on oil/gas well drilling rigs, both in the North Sea off Scotland, and in the jungles of Indonesia. However, once you get to Australia all that means zippo and you have to go back to school and get the Australian A grade certificate. Fair enough, learn the Australian standards. Ah, but that's not enough if you want to work with the "best in the world", no I would have had to work on a supervised workers license for a year before I could have got my full Australian certificate. I spoke with a few companies and they said I'd be on a crap wage while on a supervised license.

Pretty much as soon as I got residency of Australia, I jumped into excavation for "a change". I admit that was really really stupid of me, but I've always been a nuts and bolts type of guy and love mechanical equipment. I thought I could always go back to sparkying later. Anyway, got into a bit of a financial rut where I was paying business equipment loans and only just scraping by to pay them. If I'd just got a job so I could have went to electrical school, I wouldn't have made enough to pay the existing business loans. So in the trap I was caught, and time went by as I struggled along in the excavation game. By the time I was in a position to consider dumping the business and trying to get my electrical ticket here, I was told I'd been out of it too long and I'd have to start in the latter part of an apprenticeship.

There's quite a few stories of guys changing careers when they get to Australia because of this crap, plumbers included. I even spoke to a South African scaffolder who used to live in the UK. He said he loved his scaffolding job in London but when he came here, he dumped the profession because the methods here were so behind. Yet the Australian scaffolders he worked with would try and "teach" him. He ended up giving one a big mouthful and "explained" how behind they were. He quit the scaffolding game here and now he's a building site supervisor.

The amount of brainwashed sparkys I've spoke to saddens me. They love to proudly announce, "Oh, but we have the highest standards in the world", and I always leave them speechless when I reply, "And which international electrical governing body has compared the electrical standards of various nations, and declared Australia has the highest standards ?? It's nothing but you guys putting a crown on your head and saying we are the best."

My wife is from Singapore and she worked front desk reception for years in international hotels. She speaks very clear English too, not the short sharp Asian dialect you often hear. Try to get a job in Australia and all she got is, "You need Australian experience". Interestingly enough my wife mentioned that very subject was on TV a couple of weeks ago. Many people who emigrate here have trouble finding work because they get the Australian experience speech.

Day to day driving on the roads here says it all when it comes to "standards". No wonder dash cam sales are fast increasing, there's morons everywhere.

Anyway during my apprenticeship we had a week doing lathework and I really enjoyed it. That was my first intro to metal machines. Always thought I'd get a lathe one day. Anyhow, during the excavation business I paid off the excavator loan and the bank threw a new no questions loan at me. So instead of getting more excavation gear I decided to get all my workshop toys and start making attachments for the excavation business. Built the cnc plasma, made a few attachments, did my own line boring MY FIRST LINE BORING JOB 1 - YouTube and overall enjoyed it all.

Then a few years ago my current boss offered me a job but the pay was too low for my outgoings. Fast forward and the machinery loan was long paid off so I gave him a call and here I am now. I took the job more out of interest than money, with the hope I can make up for it in my own time. This is just 2 of the things I'm hoping can make me an extra buck in my spare time:

20160228_152018.jpg 20180327_174045.jpg

And no, the designs/ideas are not mine, although I did do the patterns in the firepit (the animals, etc).
 
I am going to offer a much different perspective...please take with a grain of salt.


Sounds like you are on the path to being a Jack of all Trades, Master of None.

Been down this road with a few people, including a very good buddy of mine. All very bright, hands on people with skills. Skills in that you show something, explain and they absorb the material like a sponge...not only can they regurgitate the material as explained, but they can manipulate and adapt it to work in other ways. Spending their time and money to learn the new craft was not a problem...

The problem is I was never able to harness the eager energy to learn or get them to master any portion it was learn enough to satisfy their craving and move on. It was learn in big strides, hit the big benchmarks...but the fine details were always lost.

In machining it is the fine details that make consistent good looking parts that are to tolerance and done in a quick efficient manner.

The reoccurring theme was the fine details are boring and tedious and could be skipped over...had to be a way to skip over them. More often then not that created scrap.

Production work was "beneath" them, boring...


After the learning slowed the trade became somewhat less interesting...became a job and they looked to something new...


So when I hear about someone jumping careers, flying up the ladder of each and bailing...never do to their lack of knowledge and skills, I am apprehensive hiring as my gut says I'll be spending lots of time and energy teaching only to have them Move On way before I ever see a return.

I may be 100% off base, if I am sorry.
If not, maybe sit back and see if I hit some points you may want to reconsider to approach you boss slightly differently. I did say I hired apprehensive ...but I hired and taught anyway As always to the best of my ability, when I can, and to whomever requests or seems interested enough. Whether I get the benefit or they move on with it I'd like to know the skill set is being passed on.


Quick edit as I did not really answer your question exactly...and as I write this I doubt I will again.
But how would I rate you...

You explained what you have done and what you are capable of while expressing eagerness to learn this trade. You have explained how you have risen through the ranks...all great high marks, kudos to you for that.

But how I would rate you or anyone for that manner is based on what you produce...not what you can, would or should produce but at the end of the day, week, month what is actually produced. Yes, there will be times mistakes happen, glitches...but is that mistake turned into a learning event, one that Will Not be repeated, if so at least we made headway in the learning process. So not knowing what your actual output is I could not speculate on anything other then your potential...which seems pretty darn good although its sounding like you have a foot looking for a door.
 
In machining it is the fine details that make consistent good looking parts that are to tolerance and done in a quick efficient manner.

That sentence says so much about the trade it bears repeating.
 








 
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