Reasonable? Job shop dispute from the customer perspective

jccaclimber · Mar 28, 2017

I'm posting this in the Owner Issues board because I want your perspective. I've seen several threads here where the customer is being unreasonable, but of course those were posted from the shop's perspective. I'm trying to make sure I'm not being one of those unreasonable customers.

Details:
Ordered a machining job from a new to us job shop. We had face to face meetings discussing the method that these have been made by in the past, as well as several things to watch out for. IE, "You'll think you can skip this step when you make it, but you will end up with an out of spec. part if you do, so don't try to skip it to lower your quote." They weren't the low quote, but we could use another source so we decided to go ahead. QC report of all print dimensions on all parts to be included at delivery.

PO issued late last year. Shop provided a delivery date when they accepted the PO. They also told me when they would be starting on these parts. I let them know there was one dimensional change outstanding, which feature it was on, and to let me know if not having it started to cause a delay. Print update was delivered before the listed start date.

Shop pushes out delivery date several times for different reasons. Everything said and done the parts show up more than a month late. QC reports good, but the mating parts (made by the same shop at the same time) don't fit together at delivery. Other parts that do fit are out of spec. by several times the print tolerance.

So here I am, parts are late, parts don't work, looks like something is also wrong with their QC process because the parts don't fit together.

I can tell these guys are working hard to make these, but I feel like they're over their head, and hard work doesn't count if the parts are no good. I'm getting pressure to pay these guys for the parts they did make right, and go elsewhere on the ones they messed up.
Shop of course wants an opportunity to re-do everything, but has not offered a lead time yet.

Thoughts?

moonlight machine · Mar 28, 2017

jccaclimber said:
I'm posting this in the Owner Issues board because I want your perspective. I've seen several threads here where the customer is being unreasonable, but of course those were posted from the shop's perspective. I'm trying to make sure I'm not being one of those unreasonable customers.

Details:
Ordered a machining job from a new to us job shop. We had face to face meetings discussing the method that these have been made by in the past, as well as several things to watch out for. IE, "You'll think you can skip this step when you make it, but you will end up with an out of spec. part if you do, so don't try to skip it to lower your quote." They weren't the low quote, but we could use another source so we decided to go ahead. QC report of all print dimensions on all parts to be included at delivery.

PO issued late last year. Shop provided a delivery date when they accepted the PO. They also told me when they would be starting on these parts. I let them know there was one dimensional change outstanding, which feature it was on, and to let me know if not having it started to cause a delay. Print update was delivered before the listed start date.

Shop pushes out delivery date several times for different reasons. Everything said and done the parts show up more than a month late. QC reports good, but the mating parts (made by the same shop at the same time) don't fit together at delivery. Other parts that do fit are out of spec. by several times the print tolerance.

So here I am, parts are late, parts don't work, looks like something is also wrong with their QC process because the parts don't fit together.

I can tell these guys are working hard to make these, but I feel like they're over their head, and hard work doesn't count if the parts are no good. I'm getting pressure to pay these guys for the parts they did make right, and go elsewhere on the ones they messed up.
Shop of course wants an opportunity to re-do everything, but has not offered a lead time yet.

Thoughts?

Good luck!

Derek Smalls · Mar 28, 2017

I'm intrigued by the idea of "QC report of all print dimensions on all parts to be included at delivery", which you say is "good", but that this is not accurate. So their QC report has falsified numbers on it? You don't give much detail on what type, or how close of tolerances you are talking about, and whether they are geometric or dimensional? Is this a matter of someone reading a mic wrong and a diameter is oversize, or your CMM not agreeing with theirs on some crazy, hard to measure feature?
You also don't say what the material is. Some materials, plastics for instance, will grow and shrink dramatically with temp. and humidity changes, while other materials like stainless are prone to internal stress related problems.
You say the mating parts, which they made, don't even fit! What do they say about how any of this happened?
I think we need a lot more info to be at all helpful, other than just to say that the shop that made them sucks.

Panza · Mar 29, 2017

I agree we need more info. Regarding the mating parts not fitting: Is it possible that the tolerances are set so that when taken to the limit on both parts they won't go together ?
Anyway: When they're a month late I would go elsewhere.
From my own experience: When there is a schedule that must be met the contract should have a late-fee, or no payment if late.

DDoug · Mar 29, 2017

it sounds like they are out of their league, and promised that they arent.

Just-to-get-the-job.

Sent out prints for a large weldment that also needed machined (size of a pick up truck).
Note that there are shops local here that can easily handle this, with large capabilities,
in both welding and machining.

Buyer sends it to "2 men in a 2 car garage with a buzz box" who farmed out the machining.
Yet another "We can do it" shop.... :skep:

After repeated warnings (by me to the buyer) that this shop was in over their heads, I finally get
the shop to hire a retired inspector to "inspect" and certify part is "okee dokey"

All inspector did was write on drawing "all dimensions in spec" and signed it.

I told buyer to get inspector to "actually measure, and write down actual dimensions found"
on the print....to no avail.

You want cheap, you get cheap.

SND · Mar 29, 2017

This happens all the time. We might be a few good shops on here who care about doing good work and getting better at what we do all the times... but we represent at best maybe 10% of the shops out there.

First warning sign you'll get a pile of junk " Oh yeah that'll be easy "
Some shops don't know when to say no and will turn nothing away, or really over estimate their ability.

When you have good vendors that have put the time to learn how to do your parts properly, do your best to stick to them. When trying new vendors, start with tiny orders, 1 part of this, 1 part of that, not a whole order you depend on. Quite frankly a lot of shops get by exactly on the fact that their customers are stuck making do with out of spec junk just to finish their orders. Seen a few customers have to try to mix and match parts, modify stuff and so on trying to not shut down production and wait weeks/months for new parts from elsewhere.

jccaclimber · Mar 29, 2017

Derek Smalls said:
I'm intrigued by the idea of "QC report of all print dimensions on all parts to be included at delivery", which you say is "good", but that this is not accurate. So their QC report has falsified numbers on it?

I'm not saying they falsified their numbers, it's entirely possible the measurement tools were not used accurately. In this case the tolerances are tight (tenths), but the round pin should fit in the round hole. Tolerances and clearances are the same as many other parts we have made in the past elsewhere.

Derek Smalls said:
You don't give much detail on what type, or how close of tolerances you are talking about, and whether they are geometric or dimensional? Is this a matter of someone reading a mic wrong and a diameter is oversize, or your CMM not agreeing with theirs on some crazy, hard to measure feature?

Tight tolerance, ballpark 12 mm diameter with ~20 micron clearance at MMC. Round part, round hole. Custom gaging to measure the internal diameter was included in the PO.

Derek Smalls said:
You also don't say what the material is. Some materials, plastics for instance, will grow and shrink dramatically with temp. and humidity changes, while other materials like stainless are prone to internal stress related problems.
You say the mating parts, which they made, don't even fit! What do they say about how any of this happened?
I think we need a lot more info to be at all helpful, other than just to say that the shop that made them sucks.

Material is 4140 steel, so no plastic creep issues. To be clear, I'm not saying "this shop sucks", the other parts appear to be good, I just think they were out of their depth on this one. Unfortunately this is our first job with them, so I can't brush it off as a fluke.
As for the non-fitment, they said they are going to look in to their measurement process and get back to me.

Panza said:
I agree we need more info. Regarding the mating parts not fitting: Is it possible that the tolerances are set so that when taken to the limit on both parts they won't go together ?
Anyway: When they're a month late I would go elsewhere.
From my own experience: When there is a schedule that must be met the contract should have a late-fee, or no payment if late.

The parts will go together across the full tolerance range.

pmack · Mar 29, 2017

More than likely you have an out-of round hole. It was probably interpolated on a machining center. Check the hole with 3 point mics or 3 points with a CMM and it shows good, but a round pin won't fit in the hole.

Whysosharp · Mar 29, 2017

Sounds like they were in too deep. Late delivery and things out of spec for a new customer? I don't know anyone that is still in business at least in this area that let's that happen

yardbird · Mar 29, 2017

jccaclimber said:
I'm getting pressure to pay these guys for the parts they did make right, and go elsewhere on the ones they messed up.

This isn't the way to start a long standing good business relationship. I'm wanting to give the shop the benefit of the doubt but my gut tells me this is just the beginning of much headaches and hassle.

I get that accidents happen but not only late parts but late junk parts? I think I'd square up with them and be on the hunt for someone else and not lose a minutes sleep over it. Not an owner a machinist btw....

Brent

Joe Miranda · Mar 29, 2017

How many pieces parts are we talking here? If there are only a dozen or so, they should be able to re-work them fairly fast - like a day or two. If we are talking one hundred or one thousand maybe a little longer but still not that bad - maybe a week or so - still better than having them re-made somewhere else.

If the rest of the parts look good I don't see how anybody can say these guys were in over their heads.

I know this is not according to conventional business practices, but as much as possible I try to view every business transaction as if I were working with and for my friend. So I ask myself how I would treat them or like to be treated by them. If I was the one that made those parts I would sure appreciate the opportunity to make things right with you to preserve and protect our "friendship".

I have found that the customers I have that I want to keep, are the ones that respond in kind. I have not only won a loyal customer, but I have a new friend. This way we are both far more likely to go the extra mile with each other and not easily arrive at the point where we say to ourselves "that's it -I'm done with them". Because at the end of the day, that is the last thing we want to have happen either as the customer or the vendor.

triumph406 · Mar 29, 2017

Joe Miranda said:
I have not only won a loyal customer, but I have a new friend. This way we are both far more likely to go the extra mile with each other and not easily arrive at the point where we say to ourselves "that's it -I'm done with them".

If you want a friend in this business get a dog.

I've found being friends with customers or vendors gets in the way of doing good business.

HuFlungDung · Mar 29, 2017

Specify "No QC paper trail required, but parts must fit together", so they can spend less time with pen and paper and more time with a micrometer and a file.

Econdron · Mar 29, 2017

So your question is are you being unreasonable? With what? What have you demanded from the shop? You say they want payment on the parts they did correct, yes they should be paid on those. Having the opportunity to fix the messed up parts... That's a different story. Personally I would want to opportunity to correct the issue. They SHOULD get it done ASAP to try and make you happy. Maybe they had a machine go down and it pushed everything back. It happens, then they rush to finish your job and mess up on it. Definitely happens. I'd give them another chance, maybe on something small. And give them opportunity to remake your parts. Who knows, maybe it's the start of a long term, very good relationship that you would be tossing out the window because of one mess up.

I've outsourced parts and had the shop mess up the part and want to be paid for that part AND the replacement part. That's unreasonable.

jccaclimber · Mar 29, 2017

HuFlungDung said:
Specify "No QC paper trail required, but parts must fit together", so they can spend less time with pen and paper and more time with a micrometer and a file.

I hope you're joking on this one, as this has been one of my common recurring issues over multiple jobs and industries. There is a time and place for "must fit", and in that case I will specify. In this case a part that has been made to "just fit" is probably undersized across a critical leak path (hydraulic components w/o seals). I need to be able to order a new mating component 6 months from now and know that it's going to fit. If the part isn't held to tolerance, I'm not going to be able to do that.

Historically we haven't required inspection reports, but I've had a recent string of issues where X part doesn't work and after some digging I find it caused by a feature out of tolerance. The usual response (different shop) is "we measured the first and last one". Our hope was that by offering to pay for 100% inspection we wouldn't be finding problems caused by out of spec. issues slowly over the next 3 months of testing. In the past that has worked well for me, and at a quantity of less than 20 parts the cost wasn't that bad.

SND · Mar 29, 2017

Unfortunately asking for the shop to supply inspection reports is a bit like a guy asking his wife to step on the weighing scale and tell him the number...

SIM · Mar 29, 2017

SND said:
Unfortunately asking for the shop to supply inspection reports is a bit like a guy asking his wife to step on the weighing scale and tell him the number...

Funny! But you don't know me then! Honey, after a week of "watching" you gained a pound.

In all seriousness, I do this for a customer. I really didn't want to...but his inspector left and I was asked to supply with reports.
While I want to put back a part that measures a bit over or under for one that is closer...that is not the case. I check a few more and we send them back to the floor for rework, touch ups..or toss and make new.

I'll mention one These mating parts don't mate times.

Made parts to spec, tried parts all good, but a couple holes needed deburring. You guessed it, dull countersink my guy used pushed bur into hole and parts didn't fit together anymore. Same tool pushed first thread in, screw didn't fit.

Anyway, on phone I am telling customer I personally checked and put the parts together...he's saying, NO they don't fit. I am not going to argue, so I go over...sure enough they Do Not Fit, screws don't go in. Brought back to shop quick touch with new tool and parts are good to go.

So maybe a reason

72bwhite · Mar 29, 2017

First question why did you go to a new vendor?
You say others have also had trouble with the same part
and they have provided some good parts.
sounds like just still working out all the kinks in the process.
could be all that is need is a couple passes with the hone.
50/50 they won't do a second batch if asked.

jccaclimber · Mar 29, 2017

72bwhite said:
First question why did you go to a new vendor?

Usual vendor has been slowly slipping on quality over the past couple years. We also tend to get multiple projects in at once, and the usual source can only make them so fast. As a result we would like to have at least two local sources.

72bwhite said:
You say others have also had trouble with the same part
and they have provided some good parts.

The troubles that our other sources have are usually either minor (miss a true position slightly), or things they just didn't measure (the first one was good). These had several in one part, along with one major feature that was nowhere near close.

72bwhite said:
sounds like just still working out all the kinks in the process.
could be all that is need is a couple passes with the hone.
50/50 they won't do a second batch if asked.

Certainly possible on both points.

jccaclimber · Mar 29, 2017

SND said:
Unfortunately asking for the shop to supply inspection reports is a bit like a guy asking his wife to step on the weighing scale and tell him the number...

You make a good point. On larger more critical jobs we have specified a local third party inspection place. The problem is that the feedback loop is slow. Shop finishes all of the parts, sends them to QC, one fails, shop starts over on that one. For some reason they never seem to make enough extra.

I'd say it's 50/50 on how they do. Some shops find a spot to measure that the part comes in ok. Some shops make sure the part is good no matter where they measure it. The latter costs more, and is harder to find, although worth it IMO. Up until these showed up at the door that's what I thought I would be getting.

As an aside, if I asked my wife what she weighed I would get the answer, the historic trend, and at some point when she has her phone out be offered the log sheet. This isn't because my wife is happy with her weight, we just have a very blunt and honest relationship (we're both engineers).

Reasonable? Job shop dispute from the customer perspective

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Stainless

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Titanium

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Stainless

Diamond

Titanium

Titanium

Stainless

Stainless

Similar threads