Shop guys work against each other, not together

Just as the title says, I think it is time to address current shop culture. Just wondering if anyone else has had similar problems and how you went about handling it. The obvious answer to me is easy, get rid of the bad apples. Just curious to the approaches you took.

There is this sentiment of me versus you in the shop. Which is ironic, because the way our process works, it is certainly a team effort which results in a finished product. Each person is responsible for a step in the part, and usually not the entire part. Some of the problem is the generation gap between older guys and younger guys. However, I will say a lot of the older guys just seem altogether grumpy and extremely bipolar at times. As much as I appreciate and need their experience, I will not miss the petty drama that most of them bring to the shop when they decide to retire or leave. There is really no reason for the attitude either.

Anyway, my plan to handle it is to first address the issue to everyone and let them know it will no longer be tolerated, that we are a team and we need to act like one. Those who continue to create the hardships may end up paying the consequences. Experience or not, they are spreading a cancer in the shop that makes everyone else resent them and even their own job in general- its a hostile work environment at times because of it. I have my approach planned, just wanted to see if and how you guys that have dealt with it handled it? Interested if any guys here have implemented plans that create more of a "team" atmosphere in the shop. Reward systems etc. type incentives...

In my experience, when the "Boss" come around bitching that we all need to work together as a team, it translates as this;

The guys who work hard and know what they're doing need to work extra hard to make up for the a-hole slackers. And if you don't, you're just being difficult.

larry dickman said:

in my experience, when the "boss" come around bitching that we all need to work together as a team, it translates as this;

the guys who work hard and know what they're doing need to work extra hard to make up for the a-hole slackers. And if you don't, you're just being difficult.

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I have seen so many instances of this in the last few decades that it seems to reflect some kind of ideology. The first warning that something is "off" is the bit about each worker performing a step on the same part. Is there a QC inspection after each step to insure that careful workers don't get garbage as input?

This sounds like a throwback to archaic methods of manufacture where everyone did a single operation. The big difference back then was that someone, usually a foreman, was doing rudimentary inspection on sample parts as they walked around, with particular attention to less-experienced workers.

Where I said this seems to reflect some kind of ideology is because it is not unique to shops and other places where things are made. I know a couple of people in the financial services sector who have had problems with slackers being assigned to "the team" and then chastised by the boss for not having proper team spirit when the individuals under-perform and resist all efforts at correction.

In my own field I have had increasing problems in recent decades with lower level technicians who are unable or unwilling to do the assigned work. In some cases they just aren't capable but in others they are bright enough, have the basic skills, but just feel they should be allowed to pick and choose which work they do. That many so-called-managers allow them to get away with it and say "the team" must get the work done means they expect me to do the lower level work in addition to the higher level work that is beyond the capabilities and experience of the slackers.

We had a few of these at a mold shop I worked for. Assembly guy #1 was fantastic, courteous and generally hilarious. Assembly guy #2 sauntered about like he owned the place. In a way, he did, being hired only as he was a close relative of one of the owners. We had a hot job (aren't they all?), a 4-cavity food packaging mould that needed assembly. I had just finished gun-drilling the water passages and sent it over to assembly. Ass-guy #2 came up to me about 30 minutes later complaining I didn't blow the holes out and by some line of reasoning I can only speculate on, therefore I didn't know wtf I was doing. I explained that we had just switched to a synthetic coolant and it was far stickier than the oil-based coolant we had been using previously. He'll just have to flush w/water and blow them out again. As he walked away he kept yelling expletives about "this f-ing guy man."

I was the youngest one in the shop by 1/2 the age of the next man, so I half expected it. I took it as a person with an inferiority complex- he was barely qualified to assemble an Ikea photo frame and I was a CNC turning/milling/gun drilling/conventional machining person. It's my belief that some of it was innate but the majority of his response was learned. He saw what his uncle did in the shop (co-owner) and how he flipped on legitimate issues, and picked up the behaviour but without context.

Many men (and women in historically male-dominated fields) do this. They assume a man has to be a prick. If they don't understand something, the task/person/drawing/assembly/mechanism is "f-ing stupid'. "Everyone else is an idiot" type mentality. I have worked with level-headed and intelligent machinists/welders, but it's about a 50:50 occurrence. You'd like to tell these people to chill out and that constantly bitching about other employees- contrary to their perception- does not make the sh*t-talker appear superior. It makes them appear vindictive and resentful, both unflattering qualities. I once had a welder tap me on the shoulder while standing in front of the control of the only CNC gantry mill in the shop (only mill at all) and ask "Hey, what's a soliloque?". Not knowing it was when the 4th wall is broken in theatrical performances, I told him I knew not. Cue some BS about there being something I didn't know. I had never previously spoken to this guy other than to say a polite 'Hello'. But again, younger guy...I wonder how many years he had been saving that question?

Theatre boy got his comeuppance a few months later when he ran two bridge cranes into each other at full clip and the boss essentially pushed his tool chest off the loading dock.

I would try to reason with these employees. Explain you're all contributing towards a common task, and work is a perpetual part of life so you/they may as well make it as painless as possible. Without knowing the specific people all I'd suggest is that as the weather gets nicer people's mood tend to improve. Being hungry is a large contributor as well. Outside of that, dealing clashing personalities is the Sisyphean task of management.

This has nothing to do with the quality of work, or the level of production. We are fine there. I dont have "slackers" they usually do not last very long. Everyone does their job. I understand why this step by step process may be confusing to some because ultimately we are not a "custom machine shop" where a machinist makes a part. We are a service center with value added services. It would be impossible for me to have one guy cut steel from a mill plate, drive it to the other shop on a fork lift, put the ring on a lathe, then take it to a drill. It just doesn't work that way here and that is because of the scope of our work. There is a bitter resentment towards each other that really reduces to extremely elementary type issues. I am not kidding, you have to laugh at some of the things that cause this. I am just sick of dealing with it, and unfortunately some of our most senior and experienced guys are responsible for it.

Great post, thanks for the response. It sounds you understand this culture well and I wish I has some more guys like you. Its a shame; you get some new guys with a good attitude in here but after time the others wear on them and they become the same way. Its a vicious cycle and I have been addressing it, but I think its time to take it public to the shops as a whole.

First up - we don't really have the kind of attitude issues you describe. If we get any kind of sense of attitude in the interview or first 90 days - we happily send the 'tude down the road to other pastures. Just reading some of the posts here convinces me that there is a severe pandemic of delayed onset of adulthood in most every trade.

We run an open book company and we ask the employees who are doing the work to take a stab at estimating the job before they start. This gives each employee a chance to see how their contribution can make or break the job - we also have clearly defined tasks for each employee on the job and what they should seek with regard to delivering a product to their customer - the engineer needs to deliver decent drawings to the shop, the shop needs to deliver clean parts to paint / powder coat, the painter / powder coater needs to deliver perfect parts to assembly, and the assembly techs need to deliver a perfect machine to the engineer who takes the machine through commissioning and FAT. And the engineer needs to deliver a perfect machine to the customer. EVERYBODY is seeking the benefit of their customer and that is what they are measured by.

The guys that run the machine shop making parts work right along side the engineers and the stairs between the shop and engineering are well worn with traffic that goes both directions and the teamwork gets better every year . . . the engineers want to make drawings and specify materials that make the machinists job easier (as well as purchasing's job) - even if it makes the engineer's job more difficult to do - that is the job description of the engineer - same for the machinists and fabricators - they work together to deliver perfect parts that are ready for finishing or outside processes.

Again, everybody seeks the benefit of their customer (defined as the next person that receives their work) . . . and if they all do that well, we cannot help but thrive as a company.

If someone is always seeking their own benefit or if anyone demonstrates disrespect for someone else in the company in a childish manner - we sit down and try to determine if this person is capable of growing up and using their talents for the benefit of the team or if we need to send them down the road - we coach, we extend grace in most cases, but if someone were to call someone a f*ck1ng idiot here - I'd personally escort them and their tools to the parking lot and send them down the road -

Generally the expectation is that you charge people to babysit a child . . . not pay a living wage + babysit.

As far as the old grumpy bi polars guys go... almost everywhere I have worked had at least one. I recon a lot of them are just old, worn out and flat sick of it. The worst ones are the old ones that are broke as a joke and know they HAVE to work till they die. Last job had one that was so poor he didn't even heat his house, so he was pissed off all winter and smelled like shit since he had no running water to clean himself or his clothes. I don't think there is any cure for those ones.

welcome to adult babysitting. everyone i know has the SAME stupid issues with employees. mine only got better when i went from 24 employees to 1. sometime within the next year it will get even better when it's only me.

From my experience dealing with programmers-with-attitude, I would deal with the individuals, not the group. Do it in private, have a chat and tell them what your issue is with their behaviour. Be specific, give examples and what you expect to change.
And listen to the person, you may find that they have issues at home, health problems in the family, money worries, problem children etc. there is pretty much always something else going on in their lives which they then bring to work. Just like problems at work get brought home with sometimes unpleasant effects there.

If after some time nothing changes, then you will have to consider letting them go as the rot will affect everyone in your company.
I once fired a super-programmer who I was told was the key to a major project. They kept making unauthorized and schedule impacting changes. When let go guess what. The others took up the gap and got the project done anyway.

A public bitch session might blow up in your face. In fact, I predict it will blow up in your face. Your best bet may be to talk privately with the troublemakers and ask them for help. Don't accuse them of being the problem, just spell out the problem in a generic way and ask for help in specific ways. Most people like to help when asked.

Some of us just aren't team players... I was a pita employee from the get go, but usually got sh*t done.

It's not unusual to have this issue. I have found a lot of it is a pissing contest.

With CNC blowing a huge hole in the industry over the past several decades you have the old schoolers who were ,IMHO the last of their kind, competing with a younger employee who has more "value" because they took a few programming courses.

One thinks his CNC skills is all the matters and the other thinks he's owed something for sticking around forever while not adapting. Even if everyone is important to the product you're making, its human nature to see yourself as more important than the next person.

yoke said:

It's not unusual to have this issue. I have found a lot of it is a pissing contest.

With CNC blowing a huge hole in the industry over the past several decades you have the old schoolers who were ,IMHO the last of their kind, competing with a younger employee who has more "value" because they took a few programming courses.

One thinks his CNC skills is all the matters and the other thinks he's owed something for sticking around forever while not adapting. Even if everyone is important to the product you're making, its human nature to see yourself as more important than the next person.

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^^^This, so much this. The problem is most of the time the old duffers, ironically, may still be a shit manual machinist to a guy with a few programming courses...then you have issues. Organized labor shops are far worse.

In my previous life I learned that sometimes NObody is better than SOMEbody.

When I worked weekends, my crew consisted of half full timers and high school and
college part timers. Some of those part timers, weather they were good at their
job or not, could poison the whole department and make for a miserable long frustrating
day..

I'd pray for the rotten apple to call out... It was amazing how when the poison person
didn't show, we could get more done, quicker and smoother than with a full crew..


I wouldn't put up with that shit. I don't give a shit if you are the most talented machinist
in the world, or if you are Jesus's first born... If you poison the work environment, you're
gone. Maybe the trouble makers production looks good because he's dragging everybody else down.

Its amazing how productive people are when they are happy, its amazing how quick the day
goes when the whole crew gets along and works together.

have 50% of everybodies job rating done by 3 other fellow workers. does not matter attendance or years experience or job performance more than other 50%
.
if you are a decent worker than getting 3 other workers to say so is not hard. if you treat people badly you will have trouble finding 3 people to say good things about you. also cooperation most say you put in good rating for me i will put in a good rating for you. so most people attitudes improve considerably when it matters what fellow workers think.
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only people who have problems are the trouble makers. this system works at improving worker cooperation from my experience with it

motion guru said:

First up - we don't really have the kind of attitude issues you describe. If we get any kind of sense of attitude in the interview or first 90 days - we happily send the 'tude down the road to other pastures. Just reading some of the posts here convinces me that there is a severe pandemic of delayed onset of adulthood in most every trade.

We run an open book company and we ask the employees who are doing the work to take a stab at estimating the job before they start. This gives each employee a chance to see how their contribution can make or break the job - we also have clearly defined tasks for each employee on the job and what they should seek with regard to delivering a product to their customer - the engineer needs to deliver decent drawings to the shop, the shop needs to deliver clean parts to paint / powder coat, the painter / powder coater needs to deliver perfect parts to assembly, and the assembly techs need to deliver a perfect machine to the engineer who takes the machine through commissioning and FAT. And the engineer needs to deliver a perfect machine to the customer. EVERYBODY is seeking the benefit of their customer and that is what they are measured by.

The guys that run the machine shop making parts work right along side the engineers and the stairs between the shop and engineering are well worn with traffic that goes both directions and the teamwork gets better every year . . . the engineers want to make drawings and specify materials that make the machinists job easier (as well as purchasing's job) - even if it makes the engineer's job more difficult to do - that is the job description of the engineer - same for the machinists and fabricators - they work together to deliver perfect parts that are ready for finishing or outside processes.

Again, everybody seeks the benefit of their customer (defined as the next person that receives their work) . . . and if they all do that well, we cannot help but thrive as a company.

If someone is always seeking their own benefit or if anyone demonstrates disrespect for someone else in the company in a childish manner - we sit down and try to determine if this person is capable of growing up and using their talents for the benefit of the team or if we need to send them down the road - we coach, we extend grace in most cases, but if someone were to call someone a f*ck1ng idiot here - I'd personally escort them and their tools to the parking lot and send them down the road -

Generally the expectation is that you charge people to babysit a child . . . not pay a living wage + babysit.

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Outstanding !

A successful attitude starts at the top.

older guys

to be fair to older guys. i have come across situations where some people do not do what they are suppose to do.
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and a older worker who has always done good work may be not happy even talking to a younger worker and asking him to do what he is suppose to do anyway. the fact that a older worker gets upset over poor work, laziness, sloppiness, not cleaning up their messes and raises his voice in talking about it i have been there.
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had 2 others go to boss and want me written up for raising my voice. and nothing said about their failure to do things by regular work procedures or normal work methods.
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yes older worker used to doing his job, not being lazy, not taking short cuts and doing what he is suppose to do might have a hard time dealing with people do not work to normal quality and productivity levels. often it is the boss who never comes around that never realizes the good workers from the bad workers who then wonders why the old timers are grumpy.

motion guru said:

First up - we don't really have the kind of attitude issues you describe. If we get any kind of sense of attitude in the interview or first 90 days - we happily send the 'tude down the road to other pastures. Just reading some of the posts here convinces me that there is a severe pandemic of delayed onset of adulthood in most every trade.

We run an open book company and we ask the employees who are doing the work to take a stab at estimating the job before they start. This gives each employee a chance to see how their contribution can make or break the job - we also have clearly defined tasks for each employee on the job and what they should seek with regard to delivering a product to their customer - the engineer needs to deliver decent drawings to the shop, the shop needs to deliver clean parts to paint / powder coat, the painter / powder coater needs to deliver perfect parts to assembly, and the assembly techs need to deliver a perfect machine to the engineer who takes the machine through commissioning and FAT. And the engineer needs to deliver a perfect machine to the customer. EVERYBODY is seeking the benefit of their customer and that is what they are measured by.

The guys that run the machine shop making parts work right along side the engineers and the stairs between the shop and engineering are well worn with traffic that goes both directions and the teamwork gets better every year . . . the engineers want to make drawings and specify materials that make the machinists job easier (as well as purchasing's job) - even if it makes the engineer's job more difficult to do - that is the job description of the engineer - same for the machinists and fabricators - they work together to deliver perfect parts that are ready for finishing or outside processes.

Again, everybody seeks the benefit of their customer (defined as the next person that receives their work) . . . and if they all do that well, we cannot help but thrive as a company.

If someone is always seeking their own benefit or if anyone demonstrates disrespect for someone else in the company in a childish manner - we sit down and try to determine if this person is capable of growing up and using their talents for the benefit of the team or if we need to send them down the road - we coach, we extend grace in most cases, but if someone were to call someone a f*ck1ng idiot here - I'd personally escort them and their tools to the parking lot and send them down the road -

Generally the expectation is that you charge people to babysit a child . . . not pay a living wage + babysit.

Click to expand...

Wow. Absolutely awesome. I wish there was a shop closer to me that had this mindset. I started this trade when I was fresh outta high school with three years of Votech under my belt and was thrown in with a bunch of old farts that worked on government contracts. I survived my bumps and bruises but where I am at now I work with a lot of "older" tool and die guys that have papers and most have 5 years or less to retirement. All of their attitudes are terrible at times of the week. I try my best to come in with the best attitude I can and try to work with everyone but the negativity gets real old real quick.

Worked at a place that was on piece rate more you produced the more you earned.The top earners were resented by a lot of the lower producers,New guys got no help in case they leap frogged over the longer termed workers.The management divided the work force into teams and send them away for team bonding activities,like an adventure weekend thing.How do we get across this river,that sort of thing.It defenitely got people who normally didnt speak to each other