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Shop needs work

Why not cancel the order on the new machine? From the equipment list, this sounds like a one man band. If that's the case, it's hard to keep from hitching your cart to just one horse. I don't know how to avoid that.
 
With the equipment you have it's probably not that difficult the hit the .002 from nominal tolerances. With that said, why are you putting in that effort where it's not asked for. I do the same thing when the job is already going well, but if I was losing money on it would be out the door as soon as it was in spec.

Its good to be proud of the work you put out, most reputations are built on it, but if your one customer doesn't seem to value it you're kind of pissing in the wind. In the long run you would be better off working 25% less now and getting out and selling yourself to new customers if you can bridge the gap.

What machine is down payment for? The Brothers?

Why did the building take 1.5 years?

Do you have any contact inside the customer who can be a voice for you when they realize cheapest isn't always cheapest?
 
Being proud of tight tolerances where they aren't needed
is a quicker path to the auction.
Lean and mean is the only way to survive in these times.


With the equipment you have it's probably not that difficult the hit the .002 from nominal tolerances. With that said, why are you putting in that effort where it's not asked for. I do the same thing when the job is already going well, but if I was losing money on it would be out the door as soon as it was in spec.

Its good to be proud of the work you put out, most reputations are built on it, but if your one customer doesn't seem to value it you're kind of pissing in the wind. In the long run you would be better off working 25% less now and getting out and selling yourself to new customers if you can bridge the gap.
 
Being proud of tight tolerances where they aren't needed
is a quicker path to the auction.
Lean and mean is the only way to survive in these times.


Well said!!

A perfect part is only as good as it needs to be to pass inspection. Part pricing is (or should be) based somewhat on print tolerance. Tighter tolerances require greater attention, more expensive equipment, & higher risk therefore demand a higher price.
If you are quoting to hold a tighter tolerance than what is needed, you are pricing yourself out of the market.
 
Being proud of tight tolerances where they aren't needed
is a quicker path to the auction.
Lean and mean is the only way to survive in these times.

I don't really see a problem with keeping everything to +-.002".

Chances are you're going to adjust an offset first thing in the morning anyways, and after that most stuff is going to fall into +-.002 without doing any work at all, or sacrificing speed.

So long as you aren't fine boring or reaming all drilled holes, theres nothing wrong with it.
 
The trouble with working from saw cuts as datum surfaces is that the lack of accuracy might mean you have to fool around with every part trying to 'center it' so that you can hold some semblance of accuracy. I had a customer who thought he was doing me a favor by sawing a bunch of short pieces to make Victaulic couplings, some of which had an NPT on the other end. Well, the cuts were absolutely horrible in quality, often out of square by 1/8" and were a royal pain to set up unless they were all faced off to the shortest length of the whole boxload. I finally told him it was going to cost him more if he kept cutting them than if he supplied 6 foot lengths or longer, because I got fed up with dicking around with crap workmanship.
 
Being proud of tight tolerances where they aren't needed
is a quicker path to the auction.
Lean and mean is the only way to survive in these times.
Of course I don't insist on holding tight tolerances if it takes extra effort when it's not needed. I was hoping some common sense would be applied to that, but it's the one thing people are concentrating on. Of course we don't use reamers or boring heads on a drilled hole, that's stupid. But we DO use carbide drills that hold impressively tight location and size tolerances as long as we already had that size on hand. No the print didn't call for that, but we already had it and it actually saved time! But you know about that stuff already... You also know how easy it is to see that a part is .003" long, go in to offsets and type -.003" and hit enter.

Why not cancel the order on the new machine? From the equipment list, this sounds like a one man band. If that's the case, it's hard to keep from hitching your cart to just one horse. I don't know how to avoid that.
We could cancel the machine order and loan. What I can't cancel is the building. It's far too late for that, and it's an SBA loan that requires 60% occupancy from me, which means we have to occupy that percentage of the building or I default on the loan (which is unfortunate, I could rent the entire place out and make a $300 monthly profit). That being the case, there's no point in moving to a larger space without also increasing capacity. So the machine stands. All or nothing.

We are a two person shop.

What machine is down payment for? The Brothers?
Just one, but yes the Brother and vises, tool holders, etc.

Why did the building take 1.5 years?
Government and weather.

Do you have any contact inside the customer who can be a voice for you when they realize cheapest isn't always cheapest?
Yes, the entire engineering department defaults to getting us to make their parts because it means they won't have to get involved when parts don't fit, or so I'm told. However I get the feeling that it's not important enough for any of them to stick their neck out. It seems like things are changing globally there and nobody knows where they stand exactly, to include 20 year employees.

Wish I could help, but I have been hard up for work since the oil crash. Keep your chin up and best of luck to you.
Thank you very much Mike. Likewise.
 
I kind of look at tolerances like shipping. If I order something and they say guaranteed next day shipping the price will reflect it. Many times I order something and the shipping says up to 3 days and I get it the next day.

Same goes for tight tolerances. If you have to guarantee .0001 tolerances it is a lot different than .0005. But you might still get .0001 even if you spec out .0005.
 
Of course I don't insist on holding tight tolerances if it takes extra effort when it's not needed. I was hoping some common sense would be applied to that, but it's the one thing people are concentrating on. Of course we don't use reamers or boring heads on a drilled hole, that's stupid. But we DO use carbide drills that hold impressively tight location and size tolerances as long as we already had that size on hand. No the print didn't call for that, but we already had it and it actually saved time! But you know about that stuff already... You also know how easy it is to see that a part is .003" long, go in to offsets and type -.003" and hit enter.

We could cancel the machine order and loan. What I can't cancel is the building. It's far too late for that, and it's an SBA loan that requires 60% occupancy from me, which means we have to occupy that percentage of the building or I default on the loan (which is unfortunate, I could rent the entire place out and make a $300 monthly profit). That being the case, there's no point in moving to a larger space without also increasing capacity. So the machine stands. All or nothing.

We are a two person shop.

Just one, but yes the Brother and vises, tool holders, etc.

Government and weather.

Yes, the entire engineering department defaults to getting us to make their parts because it means they won't have to get involved when parts don't fit, or so I'm told. However I get the feeling that it's not important enough for any of them to stick their neck out. It seems like things are changing globally there and nobody knows where they stand exactly, to include 20 year employees.

Thank you very much Mike. Likewise.



If they start having turnover in the engineering dept. that could be good for you. About 20% of our current customer list came to us when an engineer we worked with for company A left to work for Company B and needed a good machine shop.
 
For those of you who just couldn't get past the whole .002" line-in-the-sand thing:

It's been 5 weeks since I started this abortion of a thread. In those 5 weeks we have done exactly 12 setups for a total of 2905 parts delivered to customers. I've been keeping track just for you, and the furthest from nominal on any dimension on all of those parts was .0018". This includes setup parts. So I'm completely baffled how you can think that holding +/-.002" tolerances adds anything whatsoever to the part costs, our lead times or operator fiddle-fuck factor. Our setup times are between 30 and about 75 minutes from part to part, so it's not like we're taking 2 days to setup a job just to hold those tolerances either. I just don't see the big deal. Maybe if it's as difficult as you say it is, you should be doing some internal auditing instead of calling my shop out.

All those parts were made on my 10 year old Haas VF-2ss. I can't wait to see what the new Brother does.

--------------------------------------------

To everyone else, thanks a lot for the feedback, nice or not. I think the website is a lot cleaner now, and a lot less grumpy. I liked the grumpy version, but the main thing I took away from this shit show was that it doesn't matter what I like, it matters what potential customers like. I appreciate that lesson, so thank you.

And just to close out the topic, we went from having almost zero work to having over a 2 month back log. I also learned a couple things and am making more per hour on several decent quantity parts than we ever have. Not too shabby for a dickhead that doesn't like his customers, ehh? ;)
 
^^^Congrats on the turnaround!
Man, i need a dose of that too.
people sure were getting their undies in a bunch about running parts at a precision of 10 times the accuracy of the machine.
 
To be honest, I don't think people were as hung up on pointing it out as you were defending it. I didn't comment on the tolerance issue (I did point out some things in your other thread) but here's my take on it (and I think this was mentioned in the other thread):

1. As you stated, it doesn't matter what you think; it matters what the potential customer thinks. I (mostly) believe you when you say it's not costing you anything (except maybe lost work, which right now may not be a problem). You just need to be careful about how you "brag" about (i.e. advertise) it. The last thing you want to do is give someone the impression (which might as well be reality to the person with that impression) that they're going to pay more by choosing your shop over another (so that they don't even ask you to quote). I'm not even suggesting that you are advertising it incorrectly, only that that situation can occur if not done correctly.

2. I think 35-70 minute setups are too long. I really don't want or care to hear your excuses on why it takes that long but if holding 0.002 is part of what's contributing to that setup and the customer only needs .005 or .01 then it is costing at least you extra by losing some machine time and potentially extra work. But there are LOTS of things that contribute to extra (and unnecessary) setup time. Go grab a book on set-up reduction and take to it. Your machines are your race cars, keep them on the track running and keep the pit stops (and pit stop time) to a minimum.

Glad to hear business has improved!
The Dude
 
For those of you who just couldn't get past the whole .002" line-in-the-sand thing:

It's been 5 weeks since I started this abortion of a thread. In those 5 weeks we have done exactly 12 setups for a total of 2905 parts delivered to customers. I've been keeping track just for you, and the furthest from nominal on any dimension on all of those parts was .0018". This includes setup parts. So I'm completely baffled how you can think that holding +/-.002" tolerances adds anything whatsoever to the part costs, our lead times or operator fiddle-fuck factor. Our setup times are between 30 and about 75 minutes from part to part, so it's not like we're taking 2 days to setup a job just to hold those tolerances either. I just don't see the big deal. Maybe if it's as difficult as you say it is, you should be doing some internal auditing instead of calling my shop out.

All those parts were made on my 10 year old Haas VF-2ss. I can't wait to see what the new Brother does.


Kinda tough to judge how long a setup takes without knowing the part and setup. I know here a setup can be as short as 5 minutes to the better part of a day.

Holding .002 is impressive...unless your supposed to hold .0002. On some of my jobs if your checking to see if your within .002 your already wasting too much time...just in the checking alone.
I'll agree if it takes no time to bring dead on and keep it there...why not.



--------------------------------------------
To everyone else, thanks a lot for the feedback, nice or not. I think the website is a lot cleaner now, and a lot less grumpy. I liked the grumpy version, but the main thing I took away from this shit show was that it doesn't matter what I like, it matters what potential customers like. I appreciate that lesson, so thank you.

And just to close out the topic, we went from having almost zero work to having over a 2 month back log. I also learned a couple things and am making more per hour on several decent quantity parts than we ever have. Not too shabby for a dickhead that doesn't like his customers, ehh? ;)

Gotta say what a difference on your website. I came away thinking Quality Shop.
 
2. I think 35-70 minute setups are too long. I really don't want or care to hear your excuses on why it takes that long but if holding 0.002 is part of what's contributing to that setup and the customer only needs .005 or .01 then it is costing at least you extra by losing some machine time and potentially extra work.
You don't want to hear it, but that's never stopped me before. :) I just want to be clear that our setup times might be timed differently than others. Remember I said "part to part"... here's how we time them:
- Last part(s) comes out of machine, measure stuff, wash, stack and move all parts out of the way
-------Time starts now-------
- Remove all tools
- Put in all tools for next job
- Remove last jobs fixturing
- Install next jobs fixturing, indicate where necessary (usually only along X axis for soft jaws)
- Run Setup Program (automatically sets all tools, updates all wear offsets from last run if applicable, then runs probe and sets all work offsets)
- Run Part Program
- Measure everything, make adjustments, run another cycle and measure again until good parts are coming out (usually 2nd cycle is good)
------Time stops here------ (only when next job is officially running)

The measuring part is where the big swing in times comes in. Some parts have maybe 5 things to really eyeball, mics and pins, done. Other parts have tons of critical features, gotta fire up the vision system for those, walk the parts in to the office, measure, go back and adjust, run it, then go back to the office and measure again. That really saps a ton of time.

I've stop-watched many of our setups and don't really see anywhere to improve. Of course if we were making 1,000 of each part number per month for the next 5 years, we'd be using dedicated fixture plates with vises all ready to go (most of our parts are too delicate for Miteebite stuff), but our runs are more like 100-500 or so with no guarantee of longevity at all. This run could be the last run ever, or it could be the start of a year or more of the same parts.

What do you attribute the new work to?

Work coming from your request for work on this forum? Changes to your website? Or, just plain coincidence of the work cycle, sometimes you're busy, sometimes nothing?
Some of it came from a couple of our competitors failing as a business, or simply customers getting tired of shitty or late parts. No RFQ's at all came from this thread. I didn't expect any, really, but I couldn't be looking at going out of business without trying everything I could think of.

Most of the turnaround was completely random. We didn't pick up any new customers, but a few old customers sent RFQ's out of nowhere. A lot of our current work load is long running, small 3D parts with some quantities in the hundreds. I'm really liking that stuff, plus if it keeps coming we can run it on the Haas and run the shorter cycles on the Brother and clean everybody's clock!
 
You don't want to hear it, but that's never stopped me before. .....

The measuring part is where the big swing in times comes in. Some parts have maybe 5 things to really eyeball, mics and pins, done. Other parts have tons of critical features, gotta fire up the vision system for those, walk the parts in to the office, measure, go back and adjust, run it, then go back to the office and measure again. That really saps a ton of time. ....

Hey no worries; what I didn't want to get into was a "war of words" or see someone defend why setups take so long and that hasn't happened. On the other hand, I do love talking setup since it's one of the easiest ways in which a shop can expand capacity; often for about as "free" as you can get (as opposed to buying a machine, paying OT or having to farm-out or, even worse, turn down work). You sound like you're at least open to talking about it (I have to also commend you on listening to the advice about the website and it looks like that has paid off).

Also, I meant to write earlier but our shop is in the midst of a move.

Anyway, here's what I could read into what you wrote, and it mainly has to do with the second paragraph that I quoted you on. As you know, waiting to take measurements is a killer. Machines are idle. People are waiting (or maybe they're the ones taking the measurements?). In any case, here's some things to consider:

1. Take some data to the effect of "What would have happened if we kept running while waiting for the measurements?". Would we have had to scrap a bunch of parts? Could we have reworked them? 99% of the time are the parts good? Hopefully you see where I'm going. If the value of time that you would be able to recover while running (i.e. additional production) would be greater than the value of scrapped parts, then you should keep running. This literally goes all over the map. If you have long cycle times and expensive material and any little "out of spec" tolerance equals a scrap part then you'll likely have to wait it out. If you're stamping $0.10 brackets on a press line with highly repeatable tooling I'd say pretty much automatically "Let 'er rip!". This could also vary by the part and hopefully you have a work order system that could code your parts as to "wait for inspection" or not before running.

2. Look at who/how/why you do your inspections. Some parts might be worth go/no-go gauges if they're repeatable. Hopefully operator are trained to do their own inspections; at least on simple parts. Where's the equipment located and can you make it more accessible? Some of this already has implied answers but here's my take: If you are doing it the same way you were two years ago and haven't changed anything, then there's a strong likelihood that something is worth changing that will improve your system (new layout, different equipment, methods, etc.).

3. The final thing, that kind of relates to #2, is to ask what kind of shop culture and incentive you have for making this process work better. I know you're small, but now the shop is busy and it would be really nice if someone could recognize some improvements in this process (or any process for that matter) that would increase your net up time % or your parts/hour rate when the spindles are on (general process improvement). This is easy to add into a small shop but much more difficult if you develop a culture that doesn't encourage improvement.

Good luck! Good on you to at least understand and know where you're at but that shouldn't keep you from trying to make it better.

The Dude
 








 
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