What's new
What's new

Small Machine Shop Owner's Catch 22

T. Jost

Cast Iron
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Location
Hillsboro, Kansas USA
To successfully operate a small machine shop requires excellent critical thinking and decision making skills.

Running a small business with the high costs associated with machining (equipment, tooling, inspection, maintenance etc,) in light of the going rate for precision parts is an example of poor critical thinking and decision making skills.
 
Oh, it was just a snarky comment that came to mind this morning. I'm not sure I'd do things much different if I had it to do over. It's just been a hard year for a lot of reasons. But, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger (and grouchier.)
 
I've long wanted to start a thread delving into the question of why precision parts prices are so low, complete with examples from over the years. A mechanic who re:re parts gets paid more with far less capital expenditures.

You would think it requires a modicum of intelligence to set up a machine and operate it, let alone know what equipment to acquire, so clearly not everyone and thier brother can do it. Yet parts are dirt cheap and customers expect this. Why?
 
I have always held two ideas on parts being so inexpensive and lower bids:

1) new tech is trickling down increases productivity which brings pricing down

2) New tech in larger facilities that cost quite a bit with machine payments being made on ran by button pushers scrapping shit and crashing yet higher-ups think they are making bank when they quoted job.
2)B New tech in well ran shops bringing prices down and lower end guys can't meet them.
 
A mechanic who re:re parts gets paid more with far less capital expenditures.

Depends on the mechanic. I've had to do tool inventories for the insurance company, got around 30k just in hand tools. And I don't have anything exotic, or Snap On.

There can be a lot of money rolling down the road in a service truck.
 
Most other skilled trades are only competing against others within a 50 mile radius or so. The radius we compete in is 13,500 miles (isn't that 1/2 the diameter of the Earth?). That is why the mechanic, electrician or plumber can charge what they do with a much lower investment than us.
 
Most other skilled trades are only competing against others within a 50 mile radius or so. The radius we compete in is 13,500 miles (isn't that 1/2 the diameter of the Earth?). That is why the mechanic, electrician or plumber can charge what they do with a much lower investment than us.

agreed. i look at it as machining rates are a victim of how easy it is to get quotes. The pipes burst or the car's broke: getting multiple quotes is time consuming and the need is urgent. Machining otoh, email the drawing.

Depends on the mechanic. I've had to do tool inventories for the insurance company, got around 30k just in hand tools.

Those are the individuals tools, think of the shop rate and the comparative capital investment. I have to have a 300 ton brake press and 10x20 plasma and the shop rate is not what some guy with two bays and a tire changer gets. The advantage we have is we can take on a big job or repeat jobs with 1000's of hours or labour whereas the mechanic is forever stuck nickle and diming with consumers
 
The advantage we have is we can take on a big job or repeat jobs with 1000's of hours or labour whereas the mechanic is forever stuck nickle and diming with consumers


Also with automated equipment we can work on more than one job at a time, the mechanic, plumber or electrician can't do that.
 
A view from the other end- Our products are priced at what the market will bear, but if we can't get parts for low prices, the whole business model collapses. Our competition is world-wide. Thus, we shop around and sometimes go overseas if nobody in the US can get the job done at a price that allows us to make a profit. There are certain types of parts that need a specialized vertically integrated company and they no longer exist here (I've posted about this before). Our parts are complex, small and have unreasonable tolerances. They usually present troublesome work-holding issues. We expect excellent cosmetics. Our quantities are not huge, hundreds but rarely thousands. The shops that have successfully made them are technically sophisticated and use things like Microlution machines for the smaller items. Those shops do succeed in making money both for them, and for us.
 
I've long wanted to start a thread delving into the question of why precision parts prices are so low, complete with examples from over the years. A mechanic who re:re parts gets paid more with far less capital expenditures.

I don't know why this argument persists here. It's mostly economy of scale. It has little do with overhead.

Let's say you have a machine and an operator that can make 10 parts in a day. You want to make 1000 parts in a day. You buy 3 much nicer machines and hire 3 more operators. Initial investment in the machines is amortized over 3 years. After 3 years, you pay the operators wages and make some profit.

Now lets say you have a mechanic who fixes 10 cars a day. You want to fix 1000 cars in a day. You have to hire 99 more mechanics. 3 years later, you are still paying 99 more mechanics.

Large stealerships can sort of crack into an economy of scale by having specialists who only do brakes or oil changes or diagnostics. But, generally speaking, one guy can only fix one car at a time.


Close your eyes and picture all the rich auto mechanics you know. Now picture all the rich machine shop owners you know. I bet there are more of the latter.
 
From my viewpoint as a job/repair shop, there are a very low percentage of parts that I could compete with other manufacturers on. Key to modest success is to be THE manufacturer of your own parts for your own widgets and let someone else worry about competing with your price, if they can be bothered.

Repair work can be profitable enough if you can salvage an expensive part with a repair operation. There isn't very much competition in repair, in the context of repairing stuff that other people use to make a living.

There is more pressure to hold the prices down on shit that I call 'people's toys', because nobody feels very happy about spending a lot on their toys. In this day and age of 'service industry', I suspect that the only way to get people to part with their money is by watching the 'favored price points' in a particular market, and that is where the real cost squeeze comes from. People are not happy to just add up all the costs, willy nilly and just pay the price for that new widget, they have to be enticed to spend. For example, I read discussions on this or that new phone and how the onlookers say "oh, they can't sell it for that, it should be bla bla" There is NO regard for the expertise of manufacture.
 
Close your eyes and picture all the rich auto mechanics you know. Now picture all the rich machine shop owners you know. I bet there are more of the latter.

not sure that is the right metric. I close my eyes and think of all the wealthy guys I know who own dealerships (where the money is made on the service), its respectably long list
 
not sure that is the right metric. I close my eyes and think of all the wealthy guys I know who own dealerships (where the money is made on the service), its respectably long list

Maybe. In my area there are tons of new car dealers, but they are all owned by about 3 families. Most of the money made on repairs is warranty work, so that's out of reach for anyone but a new car dealer.

For every car dealership that makes money, I bet you can find 5 that don't.
 
Maybe. In my area there are tons of new car dealers, but they are all owned by about 3 families. .

There is a lot of that here as well. Now very wealthy families. Where are the bloody competition/anti combines regulators when you need them? You've got all the dealerships of brand X price fixing and collaborating across the region and in a given local geography brand X Y Z owned by the same people. If you want to buy a car close to you all the brands are owned by the same dealer mogul. Its wrong imo and what the regulators are suppose to prevent.
 
Couple things; my Dad is a retired mechanic, so I know that arena better than joe public does, he was in indy and dealership shops. The line mechanic is not going to make much more than an average person working any moderately skilled job and they are required to have all the tools as mentioned. The longer you are in it, the more tools you have/need. Especially if you are at an indy shop doing whatever comes in the door. At dealerships it is not any better, although they are required by the oem to have the diagnostic equipment, they are only required to have 1 of that tool, so many times the mechanic (usually on commission) is waiting in line to use the equipment and sometimes it makes sense to buy your own if you want to make a decent check at the end of the week.

As for warranty work, neither the dealership or the mechanic likes it. The oem pays pennies to have warranties done and you have to do it or lose you dealership. The mechanic gets lower pay to do them as well, so while sometimes they can do OK on them if they do a bunch in a row, they never do that well.
I have told Dad many times he should have got out of it long before he did, poor situation for the employee.

One other thing with some dealerships is the owner(s) many times gets a check directly from the oem when a new car is sold, this is not ran through the store, but sent to the owner directly, so the owner is sometimes doing better than the store and will make more off the sale than the store.

It also depends greatly on the dealer and the oem whether the repair side is keeping the store afloat or the car sales. In my experience, neither side is a good career move....

Now as far as the machining world, I think if you are competing with the big boys, you are going to be hard at it and it may not be the best decision. I am trying my best to be in areas where there isn't much if any competition. Part of that is being in a weird niche that uses both wood products and metal. Alot of times I have a different perspective on what processes to use to make something that someone that is only experienced in wood or metal won't be aware of, so I have taken advantage of this on quite a few jobs where I have used some unorthodox methods to make some parts that others weren't able to.

I think that the main reason why precision parts are cheap is because there is always someone out there that will do it cheap. That is not me, if my machines and processes can't make me money on it, I am not going to do it just to keep the machine running. I'd rather play or stay at home. If someone else can do it cheaper than me, more power to them. I can say that because I rarely have heard a customer say that they can get someone else to do it for whatever reason.
 
I am a mechanic, and I hate this argument... I have worked as a machinist and I seriouslly doubt that the capital investment is much less for an auto shop. Also a hoist takes up about the same space as a VMC, one bay, one VMC. Well you have to have a tech using that hoist, and he can only work on one car at one time on one hoist. That guy is going to expect to make $20-$40 an hour depending on location and pay situation. There really is not set it and walk away with mechanics. There is also no $40/hr tech (programmer) and $15/hr parts hanger (operator). Shops I have been at have tried that idea, it doesn't work. From my personal experience working at auto shops and small machine shops the owners have done roughly the same... nice truck, boat, decent house, wife "works" for the business. I don't buy it, $120 an hour is the going rate here because that what it takes to turn a small profit. If you could line up 10,000 brake jobs with one customer... :scratchchin:
 
IMO it doesn't matter if you are a machine shop, mechanic shop, or a baker. Nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks:

"I'm going to go spend money at that machine shop place (or insert other business here)."
And consequently our mantra (though we all fondly joke about it;)) should not be:
"I'm going to make chips today."

People need specific parts and specific services. Your success in providing those parts and services all comes down to demand and marketing. Even with Job Shops. With my limited experience it would seem that the successful ones can "do anything" in a hurry, and have lots of contacts or at least enough to be profitable. If you can't compete with the market, you either need to change how you do things or find something else to do.

The car mechanics that do well don't fix wagons, while the guys that DO fix wagons know who needs it done and how to keep them happy.
 








 
Back
Top