What's new
What's new

Starting a CNC Shop with a Haas TM1P

Izeekiel

Plastic
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
I'm planning on starting a CNC milling shop in my area and I'm wondering if a new TM1P is the right option for me. I feel as though id need the extra travel that I can't have on a mini mill, and a VF would be to much for just starting out. Id get the wireless probe and chip auger along with bigger coolant tank. After pricing that all out it's around 42k. Is there a better option for me personally? Space and electricity isn't an issue for me.
 
Look at a TM3P if you are going to go with a new tool room mill. Extra travel is always nice. I would seriously consider a used VF in that price range.
 
I'm scared of getting anything used. I figure if I get a new one then I'll know every crash that ever happens, and who knows how much money I'll have to stick into a used one to keep it running with good tolerances. But maybe I'm just scared for nothing.
 
Do you have a product, customers, or a specific field you plan to work in. That would be a big determining factor about what machine to buy.

Wisconsin has a million machine shops and each one has mills. You should get a machine that can do something all those other shops cant.
 
In my town the closest machine shop is about 2 hours away, so the competition isn't there. But I know lots of people who need bumpers, motor mounts, tranny adapter plates, but nobody to make them unless they wanna drive 2 hours away or ship them out.
 
12" Y and only 10 tools, and you don't know what kind of work you'll be doing. It is difficult to be versatile with a small machine. Even on a VF3, with a 20" Y axis, it is actually fairly difficult to hold a piece that is 20" wide (the table is 18 " wide and the widest T slots are 12.625" center to center, so you can't clamp to the table from the sides). Go with a smaller machine and you end up with a puny Y axis length that might have you jumping through hoops just to hold stuff.

10 tools is not a lot of tools, be pretty common to use at least that many, especially if you want to tackle jobs that are worth more (have more features, generally speaking).

A 6" Kurt vise is 17" long. There needs to be room inside the enclosure for it. Check it. You don't want to use smaller vises than that, in general.

Small Haaspower might be limiting, too, when the machine is run at low speed, you need to know it can still turn a 1" drill diameter in tough steel, which forces you into really low speed (because the tool can't take more speed) where vector drives don't have a lot of gumption.

I know you're scared of getting a used machine, but a year's warranty runs out pretty quick, especially when you barely get the wheels turning with work. So then you bend something and still have the normal headache of paying the bill. You do know that if you cause a wreck, it's your bill, right? No warranty covers wrecks, at least, not a cheap warranty.

You can always deal on a used machine, requesting some kind of 50:50 warranty or something, where each guy pays half for 30 days, 90 days, or whatever you can negotiate.

There's used used, and then there's good used. Some guy might have preceded you by a year already, and may be wanting to sell :D
 
In my town the closest machine shop is about 2 hours away, so the competition isn't there. But I know lots of people who need bumpers, motor mounts, tranny adapter plates, but nobody to make them unless they wanna drive 2 hours away or ship them out.

Hate to break it to you, but you aren't going to make machine payments off of those people.

My neighbors newer Haas breaks down 5 to 1 over my 20-40 year old Jap stuff. I have less in my entire shop than he has into one VF3. (I have 11 CNC's and a full manual shop plus forming equipment, cranes and forklifts).

If you're going to buy new you better have a plan and you better buy something worth a shit. Atleast get something that can compete with the guy down the road with a $2000 30 year old Jap machine that's 100% paid for.

I have been to some pretty remote places and doubt I've ever been 2 hours from a machine shop. I live in BFE and there are 5 shops in a 1/2 mile radius here.
 
If I thought I was going to be doing motor mounts, tranny adapters, and that kind of one-off pickup jobs- automotive/farm equipment/repair type work, the last thing I would buy is a CNC machine.

I'd be looking for a BP, a decent engine lathe, plasma cutter, welders, fab shit, etc.

I'd wait till there is some production to support it before going CNC. 99% of the walk-in shit in my shop is bridgeport or "saw and sand" work.
 
I've needed a machine shop before and couldn't find one that was closed than 2 hours. I have trust issues with used machines. Maybe if I could use the machine a little bit and then check make sure it's within .0005 at least
 
I would seriously consider the type of parts you plan to make before deciding on a machine.

Motor mounts, tranny mounts, adapters, ect do not need .0005" accuracy. I have made them before with a sawsall and drill before.

No reason to spend money for features/accuracy that you dont need.
 
A) I would buy a used - bigger machine

A1) Can doo bigger variety
A2) You can sell it at less loss.

B) Is Thompson still in town?
Maybe they would throw the local new guy a bone?
They started buying my parts from China! :angry:

(woops, sorry, I thought Marengo, Ill.)


------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
B) Is Thompson still in town?
Maybe they would throw the local new guy a bone?
They started buying my parts from China! :angry:
Shhhh....Might be their Purchasing Agent....getting a leetle work "on the side"....:D

'Cause you'se guys are too expensive.....:toetap:
 
Last edited:
I've needed a machine shop before and couldn't find one that was closed than 2 hours. I have trust issues with used machines. Maybe if I could use the machine a little bit and then check make sure it's within .0005 at least

If you don't have another shop within 2 hours, even if you buy a NEW machine... How the heck are you
going to get service for it??? You're going to be waiting forever.. And then after the year warranty is
up, you are paying HUGE!!!! travel time, and its not cheap.. Travel time costs as much as 'work' time****.

Part of owning a machine shop is being a MACHINE MECHANIC.. If you are in the middle of Bum Fuck Nowhere,
you better know how to fix your machine, or at least you better know how to find people that can tell you
how to FIX your machine.. This is really a good place to find people who know how to FIX machines.. IF
you have a common machine that lots of other folks have...

Common machines.. A Haas, yep, lots of people got 'em...


I'm essentially in the middle of nowhere also. The only incorporated "village" within 35 miles, population
of 1100 (last I checked).. The county is almost as big as CT, with the population of a small city.
There is another shop right down the street, 4/10's of a mile, there is another guy about 20 miles up
the road.. There is little to no chance you would ever know any of us is here with a google search,
and especially not looking in the yellow pages...

Anyways, when you are out in the boondocks and before you can even think about having a tech come out you
are 6 hours of travel in the hole, you learn to do your own fixing... The things that make that
easier are

1) COMMON machines that everybody knows how to work on.. Its awesome to come on THIS message
board with a problem at 2am on a Sunday, get some advice, and be back up and running by 2:30.

2) COMMON machines that you can easily get parts for..

3) Buy multiples.. Do I have a bad board??? Grab one out of the other machine... If that LED is
lit, is that good or bad?? Go look at the other machine..


My other 2 cents.. Repair work for farmers.. PAIN IN THE ASS!!!! And automotive stuff, cheapest
bunch of idiots there ever was... You'd be money ahead getting a loan for $40k and flushing it
down the toilet, you'd be better off, mentally and financially.. You don't even let those guys
know you exist.


**** Travel time $$$.. I was talking to the previous owner of one of the dealerships out here years
ago.. I asked him why the travel time cost $95 an hour.. And he told me he was losing money on it..
$28+ to the tech (straight time).. PLUS the other half of social security, plus the extra bit per hour
the guy needs to earn per hour to cover vaca and sick time, plus the insurance...
plus the 56 cents a mile at 75 miles an hour, and the guy was traveling mostly on OT, which made
it worse.. He was going to $115, and that was over 10 years ago.
 
Do how would one go around to finding work a year before they buy a machine? I'm just starting to get involved in the planning of it all. That's why I'm asking if a tm1p is a good starting machine. The last time my town had a close machinist that did anything for anyone, ended up dying. I work in a factory where I run a VF2 from 2011. We have maintenance guys that I know pretty good and I'm sure I could get them to help me on my own personal machine. I want to get started, how do I do it? I am very familiar with G code so I'd like to at least use something that operates off that.
 
Try thinking about your business model another way.

Best case scenario with your TM-1/2 or 3 at 40K.

Your buddy needs a set of motor mounts.

What will they cost you to make, what will you sell them for?

Keep real simple-

You need material- price it along with the cost to get it to the machine whether delivered, shipped or your time to pickup.

Your time to make including layout, programming and setup with cleanup. Figure what your going to charge per hour.

Consumables- drills, endmills, boring bars inserts all wear out...or break. Gotta add them into the cost of your parts.


What does the job cost you to make, what can you sell for?


Best case scenario you made job, customer is happy, your paid.


How much did you make on this job? How many motor mounts will you need to make each month to cover the cost of the machine? How many mounts will you need to cover machine plus some needed tooling, some stock on the shelf...how many mounts till you can put some money in your pocket?




Worst case scenario- You give your customer price for mounts and he says he can buy ones for 1/4 that price off the shelf...so you agree to run closer to cost. You make exactly like he explains...but they don't fit quite right so you spend extra time tweaking them. Customer is ticked you want to charge him more to rework them as he expected them to fit...charge or don't charge him he's not thrilled.

How many of these jobs do you need to pay off your machine each month?



In all my years I have to say I do not ever remember making or being asked to make motor mounts. How many people do you think need mounts? How often will they need them...

Figure out how many jobs you can come up with...how much you'll take in for each job...see if your covering payment and money for your pocket.


As to TM-
Your work description screams manual machines...


For what its worth...18 years ago I bought a used 91 VF-1 as a backup to my then new VF-1. Machine has run 40-50hrs every week since we got it. It is slow by todays standards but still holds size well making good parts.


Good luck to you
 
I agree with starting off with manual machines. You're too limited with just milling capability.
A bridgeport, engine lathe and horizontal/vertical bandsaw. Maybe a surface grinder.

The reality is, you're just some shmoe with machines in a garage. You're going to have every cheapskate in the neighborhood stopping by as soon as they find out about you.

Him: " Hey, can you make this plastic gear for my lawnmower? I can only buy it as part of a rebuild kit and they want, like, $15 for that."
Me: "Sure, but it would be cheaper to buy a new lawnmower."

What you want to make and what you end up making might not be the same thing. Start cheap. Be flexible. Put the money back into the business in tooling and/or accessories to make you more efficient. See where the business takes you and grow in that direction.
 
You need to buy these tools first:

Vertical Bandsaw
Horzontal Bandsaw
Bridgebort/Any Manual Knee Mill
Manual Lathe (I would probably go with something with a 12" swing)
Basic Tooling for that mill and lathe (this will cost more than the mill and lathe likely)

If you get these tools in your shop and working you can do a large amount of work... it won't be cool or flashy like a brand new Haas, but it should cost you ~$10k if you shop smart and will allow you to do a lot of stuff. If it were me I would add on a Tig, Mig, Oxy/Acetylene torch set and a plasma if you want. I worked at a job shop that had the above mentioned tools and one large open CNC Mill for doing bigger parts and fixture plates. Our customers were Polaris (#1 by far) and a bunch of other small to medium sized engineering companies. The owner was a mechanical engineer and spent his time selling and designing parts for these companies. Even with real customers with real money it was a tough business. We were building small custom assembly, measurement and welding fixtures and customers that would pay what it actually cost to make them. To give you an idea I made a pair of custom pliers to install a spring into a medical device. The first ONE pair of pliers was $1500, and we made 5 additional pairs for $300 each. Trust me when I say the auto hobbiests, and mad scientists aren't going to pay you shop rate to make custom parts.

I'm not saying don't do it... it can be very fun and rewarding. But if you can't get the above mentioned tools into your shop, working, learn to use them and get actually customers willing to pay you real money than you have no business buying a CNC let alone a brand new HAAS.
 
I heartily agree with getting a lathe, not so much a vertical bandsaw (I've made do without for 40 years).

A 12" swing lathe is a bit dinky, I'd recommend getting a 16 to 20" swing. Often, larger lathes can be had for less dollars, because everybody wants a small lathe, and they are comparatively rare. It's not a matter of needing to swing 20" all the time, rather, it is a matter of what you can conveniently hold in a chuck without jumping through hoops. A 20" swing might only clear 10" diameter over the cross slide. A bigger lathe also has the possibility of a larger diameter spindle bore which is a supremely useful feature. My 19" swing Summits with their 4.125" spindle hole are hands down handy, in a repair shop. If you can stick shaft and pipe up to 4" through the spindle, then you don't need a mile of bed out the other end of the machine. While other guys fiddle around with steady rests and associated headaches of not being able to work off the bar, I've got the job roughed out. Of course you need to provide an adjustable support system for long bars through the headstock, but done right, you only have to make that system once.

If you have to have a dinky lathe, then I think there's an argument to make that one your cnc. Small work is not a big money maker when operating manually. While I do have a smaller lathe and consider it very good to have, I made do without one for 10 years or so. If you're going to make money on small lathe parts, then you need cnc to keep from going crazy.
 
From my personal experience a vertical bandsaw can save some serious time blanking out crap for protype stuff, you 100% can make due without it. Also totally agree on the larger lathe being bigger money maker, but I'm saying bare minimum if you want to have a fighting chance to make some money doing any kind of repair work/prototype etc.
 








 
Back
Top