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Turn-key my headache

backlash73

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
I have a very general question for those with turn-key machine tool solutions in their shop, did the sales pitch mirror the outcome? Did quality, cycle time, through-put, operator or automation duties, match what was quoted from the sales pitch, and was it contractual to hit the numbers? I had and experience years ago, capability of dimensions and cycle times were not met, and the sale was more important than facts. Been there, done that when the finger pointing begins, it's the cutting tool manufacturer or other finger pointing. Personally I found that I had to tweak much of the turn-key to be production ready, and processing time was understated from the get go. To be fair, I work in the casting world, so near net shape and uniformity of material is not a constant like machining from a steel blank. What has the rest of the shop world found from their turn-key?
 
Our turn key package with Mori equipment went amazingly well. They gave us everything we asked for. It was a dual spindle dual turret lathe with a gantry loader. Fairly straightforward, and we were well pleased with the outcome.
 
I witnessed but was not part of a major lawsuit against a top of the line machine builder and the dealer who sold the turn key. They promised to hold a tolerance in a stated cycle time and when the machine was installed it could do neither. There were no winners in that situation.

Also in high volume castings. Mostly automotive.
 
It can be an iffy proposition. Make sure the contract is airtight and head off the finger pointing before you start the project. (There are methods for doing that.) Basically, you make 1 company (turn key company) the absolute owner of the process. Then, any finger pointing is between them and the sub-suppliers, not between you and a half dozen sub suppliers. They OWN IT UNTIL IT MEETS YOUR CONTRACTUAL SPECIFICATIONS, period. You withhold 60% of the payment until it passes your specifications on their floor, then release 40% more and hold at least 20% until it is proven out on your floor. If they have no skin in the game, you won't be happy with the result. Basically you make it extremely painful financially until they provide you what you require and they agreed upon.
 
It helps if you already know how to make the part. At the last shop I worked at, we purchased a turn-key cell - 2 lathes & a robot, to process a part we were already making. If you can already make the _part_ , then it should be pretty clear, that part of the responsibility reasonably rests on you, and getting upto that point rests on the turn-key folks. An example would be, taking an existing, running part, and then moving it into a turn-key automated system/process.

It would also help if you have a *known good part* before you start, that can be inspected & verified on your equipment, with your operators, etc... This way, your company gurantees that you can actually check/inspect the part once it actually is correct. Imagine that you have a new part that's going to be "verified" on a CMM, but the folks that run the CMM are totally inept, or can't build the program, etc... If you have competent operators, inspection equipment, and/or CMM details ironed out, then that also helps define the responsibility, and avoid finger pointing.




If however, this is a totally new part for you, on a new type of machinery, and you will be inspecting the part using unproven methods & processes, that's a lot of grey area that could result in finger-pointing.

If you want this to be successful, try to take responsibility for as much as your company has the capability, and then clearly define that for all parties. "We are responsible for making sure the CNC program makes a correct part, and we are responsible for inspecting the part using __xxxxxx___ gaging, and reduntant CMM program that's already verified. YOUR company is responsible for everything else..." or something like that...

Good luck.
 
Customers are getting turn-key cycle times, then using that to price set?? We better hope there are lots of honest machine tool company sales guys and engineers out there, because we need to defend our part price against their statements. Of course out of the 15 parts existing in our shop, every one is too high based on turn-key quote analysis.
 
I have a very general question for those with turn-key machine tool solutions in their shop, did the sales pitch mirror the outcome? Did quality, cycle time, through-put, operator or automation duties, match what was quoted from the sales pitch, and was it contractual to hit the numbers? I had and experience years ago, capability of dimensions and cycle times were not met, and the sale was more important than facts. Been there, done that when the finger pointing begins, it's the cutting tool manufacturer or other finger pointing. Personally I found that I had to tweak much of the turn-key to be production ready, and processing time was understated from the get go. To be fair, I work in the casting world, so near net shape and uniformity of material is not a constant like machining from a steel blank. What has the rest of the shop world found from their turn-key?

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just cause a machine moves precisely does not mean a machined casting is precise. rechucking at lower torque to get it to spring to its relaxed shape and taking a light finish cut to machine the part distortion out is fairly standard.
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picture of 30" long casting plate that always warps or curls .0015 to .0030" when clamp bolts loosened and needs 2 rechucks and 2 finish cuts to get warpage down to <.0005", its got nothing to do with machine following a path precisely when it part is flat bolts loosened and part measures warped or curl
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my company spending over $3,000,000 for turn key horizontal mill. they already proved they could make a precise sample part in Japan before they will install machine in the USA. only problem with turnkey we get machine in November and after proof it works ok then they will have tool changer made and it will get installed months later. they not making tool changer til contract to buy machine is approved. so i will have to manual load tools one at a time
 

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I have a very general question for those with turn-key machine tool solutions in their shop, did the sales pitch mirror the outcome? Did quality, cycle time, through-put, operator or automation duties, match what was quoted from the sales pitch, and was it contractual to hit the numbers? I had and experience years ago, capability of dimensions and cycle times were not met, and the sale was more important than facts. Been there, done that when the finger pointing begins, it's the cutting tool manufacturer or other finger pointing. Personally I found that I had to tweak much of the turn-key to be production ready, and processing time was understated from the get go. To be fair, I work in the casting world, so near net shape and uniformity of material is not a constant like machining from a steel blank. What has the rest of the shop world found from their turn-key?

This is kind of like asking "Are used car dealerships honest?" It depends entirely on the dealership, your experience, and what you think 'honest' means to a company. Can you tell the truth about something you are ignorant about? Can you be honest, and wrong? Can something out of your control happen that makes you appear dishonest?

Automation can be tricky, but the independent pieces of a 'turnkey' solution should be relatively easy to verify.

Will the machine meet cycle time and accuracy standards? Simple: have the manufacturer do a trial production run for you. Either be there in person to verify, or have them take video of 24-48 hours of production of your exact part.

Will the complete cell meet cycle time and accuracy standards? A little more complicated, because of all the moving pieces, but still doable. Whatever device cycle time dominates the cycle (most likely the machine tool) obviously needs to meet cycle time requirements, but if the automation can't keep up with it, it doesn't matter how fast the machine is.

Robot cycles are also relatively easy to verify - any integrator worth the name has simulation software to generate robot paths offline, which also generate accurate cycle times. Inexperienced or sloppy engineering means not allowing enough time for sensor reading/communication or actuator movement, or both, and can really add up to trouble in a complicated system. Ask for a video of the robot simulation (assuming it's a robot) and watch it carefully. A two-up gripper changing out parts in a spindle takes longer than you think once you add everything up.

If you're looking at more of a custom automation solution with multiple processes, ask for their timing chart, including device callouts, and start trying to verify those. Be on the lookout for motions that just don't seem right. i.e. a pneumatic motion going faster than 12 inches per second is a concern, and real-world switching times (which include the time it takes for devices to communicate) of less than .5s would also draw questions from me. Conveyors have 'settle time' when bringing parts to a stop, because they tend to bounce off of stops, or need to come to a rest position. Don't assume a perfect 'fill rate' from conveyors on shorter cycle times either. And on and on and on.

Making tweaks after installation and site runoff is pretty common, although it should be getting less so all the time. Optimizing a process is almost always the responsibility of the end user/buyer, unless otherwise indicated at the start of the job. Agreeing on what details are what can be very contentious, so it's usually better to just set the bar for all of the metrics the builder will have to meet, subject to the process you give them being good. If the process is bad, the finger pointing can get pretty ugly, so it's better to have an established manufacturing process to work from, or be prepared to eat any losses if your process doesn't work.

If you're looking for a second set of eyes on sales proposals, concepts, or anything else with the acquisition process, feel free to reach out through a message on here.

Good luck!
 
I proposed a turnkey part for making ballnuts for a client, using a dual-spindle lathe.

Me made a sample tool with custom ground carbide inserts, made by a client of ours.
We reverse cnc broached the raceways.

Customer came in, saw us make the part, kept the part, and inspected it in the machine with their own go no-go gages.
They were perfectly happy with the quality, that was better than their old process.

We used our own demo machine- same as the one offered + some options.

This avoided all finger pointing.
"It works", you can see it work, parts are well made, and much faster than was needed.

Cycle time was not an issue at all- volumes were not very high.
I think it took about 6-8 minutes to make one nut.

More complex tools could have made it much faster, but there was no need.

On another case, we proved milling at 10.000 using a 0.02 mm endmill.
Customer made the endmills.
Usage was milling for electrodes used in edm machines.
We ran the process at the factory, and sent video and the sample part to the client.
End mill did not break.
 
This type of situation can be a real minefield. Single source is the way to go. Also, a certain amount of realistic expectation is required. On more than one occasion we walked away from an automation job because the customer had unreal goals. The applications department had to go to the VP and state unequivocally that we cannot and will not support this project as it will not give what the customer wants. Made for a tense meeting but saved us from huge headaches down the road.
 
Dumbest one I was privy to - shop was sold a Robodrill and Fanuc robot to load it for fairly simple part. Machine and robot were delivered. Techs came in to do the install. They left, machine running fine. Robot inactive, functional but not connected to machine. Owner called dealer - "Oh. you'll have to have our integration department come in to handle that. Should I have them call you?" Everything got sent back, shop lost the order, never got another from that customer.
 
I think it helps if you know the correct questions to ask and cover. It helps if you have a good idea how you would like to see it done.... but in the end with castings and forgings if the raw material stress relieves during machining and moves more than the tolerance you are in deep regardless of prior planning. In that case all you can do is figure out a roughing op to get it to move ( on the fly ) and re-engineer EVERYTHING around it. Most times you can't get a production lot of those castings up front.... but if its an existing casting to do trials with you will be ahead of the game. Inspection and everything else has to be in place as well. measure as you will in production..... your metrology rules over anyone else's.
 
There was a thread of woe here 6 months ago. I don't think that he has updated it since he was having issues. Would like to hear the outcome.

Hopefully someone recalls it. Google search with "turn key" doesn't produce the thread that I am talking about.


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I'm no Stranger to the Rain
Ox
 
There was a thread of woe here 6 months ago. I don't think that he has updated it since he was having issues. Would like to hear the outcome.

Hopefully someone recalls it. Google search with "turn key" doesn't produce the thread that I am talking about.


---------------------------

I'm no Stranger to the Rain
Ox

i am getting a turnkey cnc in November. they poured the 4 foot foundation only a few weeks back. they are waiting 30 days for concrete to get 50% strength before installing new cnc. i should know by December how well it works
 
i am getting a turnkey cnc in November. they poured the 4 foot foundation only a few weeks back. they are waiting 30 days for concrete to get 50% strength before installing new cnc. i should know by December how well it works

You'd better have more that 50% concrete strength after 7 days, and 99% after 28 days. If not, something's wrong with the mix.
 
OF COURSE machine tool builders and distributors are going to over-sell their turnkey capabilities!

Think about it, the engineers on staff at a machine tool builder are probably going to have narrowly defined manufacturing experience based around their job there. Why would these guys know more about the efficient processing of a part that your shop is making now, or hopes to be making?

Yes, the machine tool engineers should be well capable on the programming and electrical integration and all that, but whether they know processing and workholding and modern tooling - then paying them to do a turnkey is asking for trouble.

The sellers ALWAYS overstate process cycle times and capabilities, changeover times, etc. Like said, be realistic if you want any chance of success.

Most machine tool builder/distributor turnkeys aren't worth buying...do your homework.

ToolCat Greg
 
OF COURSE machine tool builders and distributors are going to over-sell their turnkey capabilities!

Think about it, the engineers on staff at a machine tool builder are probably going to have narrowly defined manufacturing experience based around their job there. Why would these guys know more about the efficient processing of a part that your shop is making now, or hopes to be making?

Yes, the machine tool engineers should be well capable on the programming and electrical integration and all that, but whether they know processing and workholding and modern tooling - then paying them to do a turnkey is asking for trouble.

The sellers ALWAYS overstate process cycle times and capabilities, changeover times, etc. Like said, be realistic if you want any chance of success.

Most machine tool builder/distributor turnkeys aren't worth buying...do your homework.

ToolCat Greg


Shirley much of that is true, but if they oversell and kan't hit the mark agreed upon, I'm guessin' that they are eatin' it eh?

Hardinge has had some "out there" turn keys over the years.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 








 
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