What's new
What's new

Used American over new import?

ElCouso

Plastic
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Hello guys,

I am the new one here, I've been following the PM's forums for a couple of years but I didn't register until about a week ago. This is my very first post but I believe it may become a bit unpopular, I've just never seen this question objectively addressed.

When you are in the market for a lathe or mill, grinder etc. on a determined price range you normally have two main options: purchasing a used good ol' american machine or a new import. I absolutely understand the love for an older beautifully built machine, but there are many things to take into consideration when you want to make business with one. Reliability and ease to find parts are sometimes as important as the precision of the machine itself.

I see many people referring to import machines as 'cheap chinese crap' and yes the finish could be largely improved and it won't last you 70 years like a pacemaker would, but you can actually plan based on the projected lifetime of an import and run your business accordingly. New imports would normally carry a 3-year warranty and some have very good customer support and availability of parts at a decent price. Not to mention that asset depreciation would make your life easier taxwise when you are starting up.

Bottomline, I consider downtime to be my biggest enemy. And I hate to say it, but I've seen more old Mustangs stranded on the side of the road than I've seen 5-year old Hyundais.

How do you justify purchasing old American Iron over a new import? Appreciate your input guys, and please don't hate me.

Thanks!

Luis
 
You need a certain quality of machine to do whatever work you are planning to do. If you need to do something that is well served by a cheap new machine and the numbers work out, great. If you need to do something that the cheap machine can't do, you buy a more expensive machine. If you need a more expensive machine to do your work and can't make the new numbers work, you buy a used machine and deal with more repair or a shorter remaining life.

That's really all there is to it. Don't overbuy, don't underbuy, and understand your needs.

If cheap Chinese machines are working for you and you're making money with the work you do on them, great.

There's no prize for having this or that machine. This is work, not a classic car show.
 
That is very sound advice, specially for when you are starting up. I have to look at things from more than one angle.

Thanks for taking your time to answer!
 
... it won't last you 70 years like a pacemaker would, but you can actually plan based on the projected lifetime of an import ...
If you plan to do production on a manual machine, you're nuts.

If you plan to do prototype but can't maintain a mechanical machine, you're incompetent.

Either way you'll go broke quickly, so no reason to worry about the difference.

This is the kind of rhetorical question that a business school student would ask. It doesn't fit Reality (tm).
 
Yeah, that is something else I have to pick up too... being a mech. engineer alone won't cut it nowadays. I still have plenty of reading and planning ahead of me. It is a good thing I came to y'all long before hand

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 
Yeah, that is something else I have to pick up too... being a mech. engineer alone won't cut it nowadays. I still have plenty of reading and planning ahead of me. It is a good thing I came to y'all long before hand

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

Read and heed, Drucker. "The Practice of Management", and "The Effective Executive".

Anybody tells you those are "obsolete", just nod, smile, and plan how best to eat his lunch.
 
Drucker. "The Practice of Management", and "The Effective Executive".

Anybody tells you those are "obsolete", just nod, smile, and plan how best to eat his lunch.
Yeah! That will help me a great deal. Thank you very much [emoji2]

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 
Now maybe I read the question wrong, but you do not specify the kind of machine your looking for, CNC's or Conventionals.

You also have a range of US built OR Import.
-While US has built some rock solid, highly accurate machines so have other countries. Not just a US or China thing...Germany, England and Japan make some outstanding machines...for manuals Czechoslovakia has made some truly robust lathes that hog and finish beautifully.
I would not base quality on where machine is from...

Now if looking for cheap machines of lesser quality compared to cheap old iron that is not clapped out...I'd take old iron over cheap, low quality new everyday.
As a machinist on manuals, you make the part right either way...but it is so much quicker to hog off the bulk on a rigid machine with enough power to handle the heavy cuts then move into a finish pass or two and hit your numbers...no taper, no chatter.
Crappy machines...you take multiple light passes trying to get material off...light passes usually means long stringy chips on a lathe...so its stop and clear bird nests...or you bump up feed...but saddle cocks or twists crunching cutting edge. You get close t size...but have taper or light cuts machine allows chatter to start and you play and play to get it right. Part still comes out right, but you fight the machine and it takes more time, eats up more tooling.

CNC or manual...CNC is great as you get your process right and then hit go over and over to duplicate...same rules apply, quality machine allows you to go from heavy rough to light finish to size where Crap has you playing around trying to achieve good parts.
Quality CNC machines also usually have good backing and support...motor, board or drive go...you call company and they have stock sending out a replacement that day. Cheap builder...maybe they are still in business, maybe not, few dealers for them...parts may be in stock or they may not be. Need support on a fix...quality companies have service techs that know machines, they can send someone out or walk you through a fix. Fly by night cheap machine...you can be on your own.
Then of course we have quality builders using better components that should last as compared to components that are just cheap and available at time of build.

I could go on and on...its not quite black and white. I buy cheap import stuff at times too...
 
That is exactly one thing I needed clarification on, I know for a fact that both (the domestic and the import) will get the job done, and a good machinist will achieve it even on an old worn machine. Just didn't know what'd make one better over the other. Making informed decisions is very important when you are doing the planning for your business.

A bit of background for my questions. I am a turbine engineer and work in power generation. When we are building a new power plant or performing maintenance on one we normally have tons of parts that need fitting and adjusting through machining, so they are custom fit for each unit. That is why I don't think CNC could do much for me at this moment.

I have no machining experience. The only things I've ever turned are the ice cream cones that I eat, but it is not in my plans to do the machining myself (even though I would really enjoy it) I am normally the one sending the parts for adjustment and I can recognize a good business opportunity when I see one.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 
And really many thanks to y'all for helping me get started. Your time and input are greatly appreciated. Hopefully some day I will be knowledgeable enough to return the favor.

Luis

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
 
Very good question and some very interesting replies. I think it is very important to first identify your requirement, then look at all the ways the requirement can be satisfied. Most of the folks participating in this forum earn their crust directly with their machines. I do not. I own a lot of machines, but they are for my convenience, not a customer's. I only make things that I cannot buy or cannot acquire in an affordable time line. I don't do production, so CNC doesn't play. I have owned my share of clapped out machines, but they have all been sold and replaced with quality over time as the opportunities arose. It isn't just the cost of acquisition, it is the space they occupy, but good machines don't fall off trees it takes time. Know what you want and be prepared to buy when an opportunity occurs. Don't buy junk.
 
One thing: I wouldn't buy new if I could get a good used machine, just for the sake of the extra depreciation. Depreciation is a real loss. It starts out with spending money that you have already paid tax on, and you get to write off the loss of your capital a little per year. So you never come out ahead, you only come out even,(assuming you are making sufficient money to replace the machine someday) regardless of what price you paid.

Assuming there is always some residual value in an old used machine, the lower price of a used machine is closer to the residual value it will have, than the new machine (if you actually wear them both equally). But you still have to earn more money to offset the available depreciation of a big ticket item, than a small ticket item.
 
I would agree with most and say it depends on what you need it for. There are so many factors to consider. In my opinion a lot of that "old" American iron isn't still around just for sentiment. Take a buddy of mines boiler. It was built and installed in the 1950's but it is still running and well. I expect it will continue to operate well into 2020 and beyond although not the same as a machine tool the quality is undeniably there and with imports sometimes you just don't know.
 
All in all, it's a gamble either way. I'm guilty of judging machines based off of where they are made, but to be honest it's more about the quality of the company that made the machine (which often is greatly influenced by the government and economy of the country it is based in).

I've fixed and rebuilt alot of machines in my relatively short life (not all machine tools, mostly heavy duty textile stuff), and 2 things I have learned:

1. Anyone who thinks they can get buy using machines but skirt around maintenance and repairs is wasting money and missing out on getting full potential out of their investments. This of course doesn't apply to everything, but to rule out buying a machine strictly because you can't hire a trained insured repairman like you can for your fridge or car is short sighted. Especially in a machine shop environment where we actually can make our own parts just as good as originals. Granted we all can't fix our own circuit boards and LCD displays, but when you rely on a machine to make you money and it's not able to do that, knowing where the problem is and what to do about it is much better than only having a phone number on hand.

2. IN GENERAL, wear and damage is a quantifiable thing that most manufacturers plan and account for. All it takes is some labor, detective work, and intelligence and you're back in business. With enough time and money, any machine can be returned to "like-new" condition. So IMO, the quality of the machine when it was new is something to consider, not just what it is like in this instant. When you have to spend $10,000 in time on a $1000 machine, things get sketchy. BUT, one thing to remember is that IMO you can't always make a machine better than it was new. This is my issue with alot of import machines. Even if you can find parts and get it fixed, it will always be just as flimsy and cheap as it was when it was new 2 months ago. Fixing up Old Iron may take more work and effort, but you will often end up with a better machine.
 
I have no machining experience. The only things I've ever turned are the ice cream cones that I eat, but it is not in my plans to do the machining myself (even though I would really enjoy it) I am normally the one sending the parts for adjustment and I can recognize a good business opportunity when I see one.
You don't want to start a shop. That's like opening an airline or a shipping company, although maybe a smaller scale. But not much smaller. There's too many years of knowledge and too much tooling and too many things to learn. Machine shops are capital-intensive and profit margins are small. You have to be a lunatic to own one.

Just find a place that is equipped to do what you want - preferably a smaller place that is maybe struggling - and come to an agreement with them. That way everybody can do what they are good at and everybody is happy. Texas has to have a bunch of places in trouble with the most recent oilpatch crash.
 
Industrial quality. Hobby, Antique?..one ups, gun smiting, puttsing. Jobber work, production parts? A good late model industrial machine can be had for perhaps $4k and up…likely much better than a low priced import.
Getting a package deal with 3jaw, 4jaw, steady and taper attachment is the way to go (and a collect holder).. A running machine from an owner not a flipper, from a good dealer, not a basket case..
Antique, Perhaps a Logan, South bend and the many old iron names can be great if in great condition. A basket case old iron is like a lathe project.

A brand new green machine after the many dissatisfied here on PM is perhaps a poor choice.

Then also consider CNC if running any production.
 
Know what you want and be prepared to buy when an opportunity occurs. Don't buy junk.
Steve, I was actually giving it some thought over the past few weeks, maybe be hunting for the equipment that I need over the next couple of years will do the trick. I will be looking at the different deals that I can find. I saw another thread where they talk about numerous auction notices. I'll ask them how they find them.

Thanks!
 
M.B. what you say is actually very true. Even though I don't have hands-on experience on repairing machine tools (I mostly do gas and steam turbines) I will have people on the shop that know how to handle any inconveniences. Good scouting for personnel will get me a long way.
 
You don't want to start a shop.

Actually I do. Many times we face problems of not having our parts adjusted on time because our go-to shops are so swamped, we have no option other than to wait. I want to be the guy who will plan ahead to have their work coming in. That can easily be sorted out with the people I already know and work with. It's just a different, more efficient approach.

Not knowing how to machine something doesn't scare me a bit. It was never my idea to do the machining myself because somebody's going to have to do the selling and coordination for the shop to operate. There was one day I knew nothing about power generation, but look and behold here I am. Of course I will get into machining, the whole nature of it has always resulted fascinating for me and that is the reason I want to do this activity in particular, but never planned for my work as a machinist to make the business grow.

I know my biggest challenge will be finding a good machinist to help me with the shop floor, but I am still a couple of years from when I have to really worry about that.

Hope this cleared it a bit.

Luis
 








 
Back
Top