Wannabe Engineers as Customers

Mickey_D · Nov 30, 2007

I have a customer who is really a good guy but drives me nuts. He is one of these inventor types who is always on an internal mission. Interesting to work with and very bright in some areas. He used to bring over napkin sketches and I could usually whip something together pretty quick and cheap (even cheap work meant that he was eating ramen for a couple of days) that would work for him. He finally got a cad system and is pretty good with it, but the parts that he is drawing are about 10 times more complicated than they need to be to function in one or two off situations. I have three years of mechanical engineering school in my past (but I spent a few years on a farm so I still know how to be practical) and am good at quick solutions that work, and this drives me crazy. I have sort of tried to push him to a one man manual shop, but that guy is slowing down and I think trying to retire. I do get some cnc business out of him and some other guys he works with, so I don't want to totally give him the boot. What is the best way to handle this - just keep giving high quotes to match the overly complex drawings and hope that he comes around? My tolerance for stupidity and pig headedness goes down a little every year and is almost at the point of being used up on my own, not as much room for that of others anymore.

AndyF · Nov 30, 2007

Price the work as drawn, suggest to him that it could be done in a simpler fashion, maybe offer to help him simplify for a fee. Do it as a tutorial, $X/hr and he sits with you as you explain how the design can be simplified. There is no sense in giving your time away just to keep the guy from eating Ramen noodles, some people actually like them.

TurningHead · Nov 30, 2007

Try to keep the Customer happy

Try to keep him happy - A person on an "internal mission" just may hit big-time paydirt and carry you there with him....

my 2 bits
John

Limy Sami · Nov 30, 2007

TurningHead said:
Try to keep him happy - A person on an "internal mission" just may hit big-time paydirt and carry you there with him....

my 2 bits
John

Or, more than likely drop you when he does, we work they pay, get it while you can.

Carl Darnell · Nov 30, 2007

YES, make the estimate for what it really takes to do the job. It is not your fault that he has no common sense. When he asks why the price is so high tell him it's because the part is so complicated. Then tell him there are ways to make it so it costs less but don't tell him anything. After a pause he may ask what the changes are. You can then tell him.

Inventors always think they have the only answer and no one else can solve the problem as well as they can. You don't ever want to have two inventors in the same room working on the same problem. It could end up in a fist fight. At the least they will be long time enemies.

Engineers and designers with no common sense like to use 4 places after the decimal point and think that's neat and it will lead to perfection. All it leads to is high priced machining costs. Of course if that's what they want and are willing to pay then by all means take their money and laugh all the way to the bank.

Most invertors are looking for the most they can get for the lowest price and have no loyality to you or anyone else.

SND · Nov 30, 2007

Quote as is if you don't want to spend any extra time of it. I sometimes talk a bit with engineers about new designs. Usually its when theres something on the part I cannot make with manual equipment. I usually just say please look for someone with cnc, but most times they're ok with doing a little change so that I can make it manually. If I see they'll have a problem with 2 parts not fitting right I let them know of course. I just see it as trying to help the customers, not too many shops try to offer that. They're willing to make things a bit easier for me sometimes, which takes up some of their time too. Of course, it is a fairly rare thing, maybe 5-10 times a year.

It's true that it can eat up precious time and it can't always be billed for, I just try to make up for it on other work.

Lumberjack · Nov 30, 2007

I agree with AndyF

Why not try turn it into a buisness opportunity?

1 Quote him a price for what he´s asking for, as drawn.
2 Quote him a production optimization and new price for the detail.

Hopefully option 2 cost less than 1, if it is as you say just stupied things he ask for. But still you will get money for what you do and he will feel he gets more for his money and maybe he comes to you even sooner next time and ask " how should we do this the best way?" nowing he will pay for your know-how. And maybe also his friends. At least you will get a chance to get paid for what you already have been doing for free if you have not included it the total cost.
Co-op and win-win usually gets us further....

John Stevenson · Nov 30, 2007

Sometimes it doesn't work if the guy can't see further than his nose end.

Few weeks ago I got a small job in to modify a sprocket, The guy had a sample but quite worn, still enough to get details off.

Basically it wanted a plate wheel with a boss welding on both sides and boring for two bearings, it was just a simple idler sprocket.

The sample had 55mm bosses on both sides but these were bigger than the base circle of the teeth and had two grooves machined in for the chain.

I asked if we could drop to 50mm and do away with the grooves as welding two bosses and machining the grooves would take most of the weld away.

No way, this guy was adamant it wanted doing as sample even thought the 55mm bit was in fresh air.
When I pointed out that it would double the cost as we had to weld two bosses on as opposed to pressing a solid boss thru the plate wheel it fell on deaf ears.

Not the first time I have had this.
was given some rubber tyred wheels with bearings and told to press the bearings out, fit slugs and bore to 25mm for a solid axle. When I pointed out that two lines down in the same catalogue you could buy the exact part with 25mm hole for 1/2 the price I was told they were not the same.

Rang the guys boss up [ know him well ] and explained the problem and was told "Do what he wants sooner than upset him " ?????????

.

starbolin · Nov 30, 2007

Wannabe Engineers and know-it-all customers

Some people would rather spend money than be wrong. It's best to let them. Learned that my first job 30 years ago.

Winfield · Dec 1, 2007

Mickey_D said:
He is one of these inventor types who is always on an internal mission.

Perhaps the guy just doesn't want to give you all of his design info and the total picture of why he is making parts that might appear complicated to you.

matt_isserstedt · Dec 1, 2007

He needs his own shop!

Spending a lot of additional time making "details" would quickly grow old.

Of course you don't have that luxury, I'd simply quote what's there, usually they go (!!!!) when they receive the price. Then you can suggest "design optimizations" that maintain function but would also optimize the pricing

dneufell · Dec 1, 2007

Love them!

I love guys like that!!!!!....They come in and start tell ME what to do and how to do it ....(they are not machinists,engineers,doctors or indian cheifs...but they play one on T.V.)

I listen to them and do EXACTLY what they want...
I am being paid by the job or by the hour(his way is 2 to 3 times as long and expensive)......but if a person comes in and says ,Hey Dean, How would you do this?.....I do it the right way......

Winfield · Dec 2, 2007

Mickey_D said:
I have three years of mechanical engineering school in my past

Who is really the "Wannabe Engineer"?

Carl Darnell · Dec 2, 2007

On compairing the inventor to Mickey-D, who is the more knowledgeable, the inventor with no engineering or machining background or Mickey-D with 3 years of study and being a working machinist?

I have done work for engineers that were smart but didn't have the common sense to understand the problems they were creating and to hard headed to believe that anyone else is smart enough to understand what they are doing. Engineers should limit themselves to being idea persons who draw up plans that are perfected for manufacture by persons skilled in machining and production. The same for inventors.

As I said before, the best way to handle those people is to give them an estimate for the part as they want it and don't be short on your estimate. Making it may eat you alive.
If they want it they will pay for it.

I have found it best to not argue with anyone over it. If I see that I would not be able to machine it with the machines I have I refuse the job.

The last shop I worked at the owner would seldom turn down a job. We did some unbelieveable things to prove that his people could do anything but the time on the jobs at times was very long. I am sure he could not have charged near the time we spent on some of the "masterpieces" he took in. In fact, the shop was somewhat of a hobby shop for the owner. That's where I got a lot of exposure to engineers and inventors. It was interesting and educational to say the least.

Winfield · Dec 2, 2007

Carl Darnell said:
Engineers should limit themselves to being idea persons who draw up plans that are perfected for manufacture by persons skilled in machining and production. The same for inventors.

I believe just the opposite! Engineers and inventors should learn machining skills and production methods. Engineers and inventors should learn to use 3D design software, CAM software, program their own G-code, and manufacture their own parts. Engineers and inventors should learn the language of GDT so that they can communicate competently in order to have other machinists produce their ideas. This I did.

"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act
their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." ~ T. E. Lawrence "Seven Pillars of Wisdom"

Carl Darnell · Dec 2, 2007

I too think that is a good idea and in some of Europe it is mandatory for engineers to work in the field before doing the work of an engineer.

This will never happen in the USA because of the attitudes of colleges staff and students. They are trained to consider themselves above the working class and much more knowledgable than the workers.

However, there are exceptions. My brother-in-law is a mechanical engineer and when out of school he went to work for a metal building manufacturer/builder. When he designed a building he was required to go on the job to see that everything went as planed. Sometimes it was a rude awakening when things didn't fit as designed.

Not many companies require that.

WizardOfBoz · Dec 2, 2007

The sentence

"I can do this exactly as drawn, for $XX, or, if you choose, I can work with you to incorporate some things I've learned in many years of machining experience since I was in engineering school - just things that make your part design easier to manufacture, you understand. You would save some money if we do this, but it's entirely your call. As I say, I need to bill you more if we don't refine the drawing."

puts the ball in his court. Any engineer that won't listen to someone with experience, who wants to help him, deserves to remain a "wannabe".

So here's a competition. Complete the phrase "You can lead an engineer to _________, but you can't make him _____________." Maybe the same sentence with "machinist" substituted for engineer?

Jim (an engineer).

Carl Darnell · Dec 2, 2007

True, just as there is more than one way to design a part, there is more than one way to make that part. It takes an open minded willingness on both parties to do something.

Winfield · Dec 2, 2007

Carl Darnell said:
This will never happen in the USA because of the attitudes of colleges staff and students. They are trained to consider themselves above the working class and much more knowledgable than the workers.

That's just not true.

RickWG · Dec 2, 2007

bosleyjr said:
So here's a competition. Complete the phrase "You can lead an engineer to _The Mall_ but you can't make him _buy shoes that require laces_"

My first thought involved pencil sharpeners.....

Wannabe Engineers as Customers

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