Insurance agaiin, ongoing problem finding coverage

Have to ask again, WHERE DO YOU have coverage thru?

I'm having trouble getting any carrier interested, does not help that the
shop is in an old wooden barn/ pole barn with metal siding.

Anyone here (besides OX) have their shop in a wooden building (non sprinklered)? I'm guessing there plenty of shops in wood structures doing welding and cutting.

One agent called last week, said 4 carriers looked at it and passed, various reasons, a couple (he said) looked at my website, saw (what must be scary words to them) like 'welding' and 'design' and 'engineering'.....
Soon as I heard that, I edited my website and took off a lot of stuff, made it more basic information....
Now I think I may know why a lot of the shops around here DO NOT have websites!
Between the insurance and lawyer bastards, I guess you don't dare do anything anymore??

On a positive note, I did talk to one agency in Calif. and the guy I talked to actually said "you must have some cool machine, any CNC's"?
Then he said "do I sound like I know what I'm talking about"?

I was basically blown away.
Never in 25 years of talking with ANY insurance dweebs have they said anything remotely indicating they knew or cared an ounce about what a machine shop does or the machinery involved. I told this guy I was impressed. He said he may be able to help me, we shall see.....
Meanwhile...I'm not waiting on him, and wanting to find other possible choices.

My last agent, a dip-ship woman, asked me 'now, tell me again, what do you DO in your business'? I say 'ah, make parts from metal'??
(extended silence) Then she says 'and what else'? And I say 'that's about it'? Then she takes this tone like I'm holding back information....

She says 'you're not describing what you do thoroughly enough for me to help you'
I'm like WTF!
I say 'you've been my agent for 8 years, and collected premiums all this time and you don't really have a clue just WHAT my business is or does'.
That's not very impressive.

Anyway, this is the level of stupidity I'm getting with the people I've been talking to. To say I am a 'bit' frustrated dealing with these clueless idiots, is an understatement. There are about 3 others I have talked to, they don't call back, they never answer their phones, they ask ridiculous questions that prove they have no clue about what a machine shop does, etc.
It's probably no wonder the carriers 'are not interested' based on the info they provide on my situation and they way they probably present it....

If anybody can steer me toward SOME insurance carrier or agent that wants business and has a bit of common sense, I am all ears, and TIA

In other words......HELP!!

dk

My insurance is through "The Hartford". It's around $150/mo and covers me for someone stealing my stuff, fire, flood, etc. It's not a liability policy, so it doesn't cover lawsuits if someone used my product and got hurt and sued, but it covers my building and it's contents as well as some other stuff (like loss of income in case of fire, etc). They wanted to know what I do and what sort of equipment I have, and I told them I have around $300k worth of stuff in my shop.

My broker is Phil Richards Insurance. They are really great - they did a lot of legwork to get me a product liability quote as well.

You could call them and ask if they do work in NY.. I would think maybe not, but maybe they don't care where you are? Call and ask. And if they can't help you, try calling The Hartford directly. I've never made a claim so I can't say anything about that side of things, but the policy I have is pretty comprehensive.

SRT ..... I'm in the same boat as dkmc. Thanks for the info on Hardford.
Now, if I wanted liability insurance ..... who handles that and any idea what a small one or two man shop might have to pay? I'm in California (frivolous-lawsuit-ville).

same boat. I'm spending $2000 a month now with workers comp for 7 people. I literally can't afford this.

I'm shopping, but no one wants manufacturing. I'm starting to see why everyone goes overseas.

Yea, sadly I was with the hartford a while back.
They kept raising my rates as if to say "if this guys dumb enough to pay
these premiums, we'll keep him as a customer".....I walked away from those bastards.

Here's a story to show the insurance companies regard for customers......

Back 15-18 years ago, I was with a small independent carrier that was local.
I was paying around $1800/ year. I started shopping around, and was finding lower rates. I called them and told them I found comparable coverage for 1200/yr. They said "OK, we'll match that".
Next year, it was $1000, next year, $900......they matched every time.
I finally got aggravated and switched companies. Like why in hell didn't they just give me the best price they could? The answer is that they are dirty greedy bastards and they'll take what ever they think the customer can pay.

SRT....FWIW, my hartford policy was $1800/yr (for several years) and also included a $2mil products and completed operations policy on top of general liability and fire. Then it went up to around $2200/yr over 2-3 years, then they raised it to $2600 and I stopped the madness. Like....a $220 increase one January with no indication why it went up. IMHO YOU are getting hosed at $1800 with no PCO (Products and Completed Operations coverage). I am a one man shop with NO stupid employees that add risk.

I hope some others see this at work on Monday and chime in with some good news.
I wonder about insurance thru a trade association?? Maybe the PMPA??
Or National Tooling and Machining Association (NTMA)??

dk


HEY 2KJETTAguy......
do you still have that magazine bar feed that was on Craislist??

we use a local insurance representative who has us set up with Chubb . . . although, after the last job we did with Boeing, they insisted on an aerospace rider.

Chubb Group of Insurance Companies

dkmc said:

SRT....FWIW, my hartford policy was $1800/yr (for several years) and also included a $2mil products and completed operations policy on top of general liability and fire. Then it went up to around $2200/yr over 2-3 years. Like....a $220 increase one January with no indication why it went up. IMHO YOU are getting hosed at $1800 with no PCO (Products and Completed Operations coverage).

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With all due respect, how am I getting hosed? You are saying you've talked to many carriers and they have all either passed on covering you or won't return your calls... so maybe your expectations on what it should cost are unrealistic? You can't make a judgement that my rate is unfair if you aren't aware of what it specifically covers.

Also, products and liability has a ton to do with what you are making, what your sales are and your history of suits, etc.

There was a thread not too long ago about people looking for product liability insurance and people were talking about $5k-$50k a year. I pay a lot less than that, with $2MM coverage and waivers for my largest customers.

Same thing here. Have 4 independents searching for me for approximately 3 months now. Have had the same "your website says you have too much capability".

Others want every detail of what you are doing. The true detail is I'm not doing ANYTHING until I get this darned (language suppressed to protect the more sensitive readers) insurance. Most clients require proof of coverage before even considering us a vendor. And the way this system is rigged I don't blame them one bit.

Nest week I do have 2 meetings to review possible policies. Farmers Insurance and Scottsdale. The rates are quite a bit different so I have to see what their coverages are. Trying to be optimistic but it's been a long road.

I've heard Donegal is also a good source but their closest contact is quite a ways from us.

Only advice I can offer is to call around to different brokers until you find those that seem to understand what your doing and what you need. It doesn't cost anything to have them look for you so have them all looking for you.

What gets me is they will insure a 17 year that's had 3 DUI's to drive a Corvette but I get shunned for doing something that I've been doing for over 30 years without ever a claim.

Al

SmokinPRanch said:

........
What gets me is they will insure a 17 year that's had 3 DUI's to drive a Corvette but I get shunned for doing something that I've been doing for over 30 years without ever a claim.

Al

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Especially since 17 is too young to drink....

Did you try Sentry?

I've had them for three years now with no problems. They actually have a lot of saftey related stuff on line to help their customers. Example they have on line forklift certification tests to help customers stay osha compliant. They also sent a letter notifing me of changes to the workers comp regulations about wc claims reporting on people that may be covered by medicare.

Here's a thread from awhile ago with some suppliers, although not exactly local to you...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/shop-management-owner-issues/insurance-machine-shop-199733/

With respect to published capabilities -- are you an "actual", degreed engineer, providing engineering services? Are you a PE? No offense intended -- we (or rather, I) just don't know, and it likely matters to the insurance co. if you're deciding what to do, rather than producing parts to specs determined by others.

I believe Scottsdale is a supplier of to "non-conforming" risks... i.e., higher cost. I once had to insure an "extra" 9-month-non-occupied house we had, and my local agent could only get coverage thru them. Pretty pricey.

Chip

With respect to published capabilities -- are you an "actual", degreed engineer, providing engineering services? Are you a PE? No offense intended -- we (or rather, I) just don't know, and it likely matters to the insurance co. if you're deciding what to do, rather than producing parts to specs determined by others.

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No not an engineer....and that wording is gone from my website.
I will bet that mostly all the job shop owners on this forum have at one time
or another 'engineered' and/or 'designed' something for a customer. Or worked with engineers? Doesn't that ability make us better machinists? We just can't tell anyone what we do anymore.

Yes, the 'problems' each carrier comes up with are all different.
If sentry is safety oriented with the forklift program, etc, they'll most likely
want me to get a forklift operators license. Then when they find out my forklifts are old, they will be a problem etc, etc.
I'm playing devils advocate here, but it does get very aggrevating.

And I've gone round in the past....
Another isn't interested because I work with aluminum. Imagine a machine shop that works with aluminum! Disqualified!
Another sites plastics as a problem, although they are only about 5% of the
materials I work with.
One guy came from Erie and looked around at my 1950-70's barn/ pole barn, and flatly stated I would have to 'bring it ALL up to current codes' before they would be interested. SO....essentially build a new building, and then maybe they'd be interested in insuring me.

The good news is, I've only had 1 customer require liability insurance (that would be covered under PCO) in 25 years. And that was for an in-plant machine repair which I do not do much of.
What I need is general liability and fire to satisfy the mortgage holder.
Supposedly, most ins. companies won't write general/fire without PCO

The problem is likely not the carrier, its the agent. I have been nonrenewed many times in insurance, been outrite denied( even denied a work comp quote once), been quoted very high rates and had insurance people tell me on the phone" you will have a difficult time getting coverage ". I switched to a new agent that does mostly industrial insurance and all my issues went away.
I am set up with allied right now. My shop is a combination of 7 construction events ranging from stick frame to pole barn to steel frame construction. Biggest thing to the insurers was fire estinguisher coverage and exit paths.
I do parts for several industries including firearms parts and that was the major sticking point for most. the major words to avoid when looking for insurance: automotive, aerospace, firearms. Most carriers have no idea how things are manufactured. Your agent makes all the difference in explaining it to them.

this is who I use.
State Auto

WILLEO6709 said:

The problem is likely not the carrier, its the agent. I have been nonrenewed many times in insurance, been outrite denied( even denied a work comp quote once), been quoted very high rates and had insurance people tell me on the phone" you will have a difficult time getting coverage ". I switched to a new agent that does mostly industrial insurance and all my issues went away.
I am set up with allied right now. My shop is a combination of 7 construction events ranging from stick frame to pole barn to steel frame construction. Biggest thing to the insurers was fire estinguisher coverage and exit paths.
I do parts for several industries including firearms parts and that was the major sticking point for most. the major words to avoid when looking for insurance: automotive, aerospace, firearms. Most carriers have no idea how things are manufactured. Your agent makes all the difference in explaining it to them.

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I'm glad you wrote this as this is what I am coming to think.
I was thinking the other day, there are cutting tool suppliers (a couple) locally, and electrical suppliers, and they all are not worth a shit.
I have to order cutting tools and inserts from 'afar' to get what I need and talk to someone that cares and knows what they are doing.

I was thinking "I bet it's the same way with insurance" !
No one local knows what they are doing or cares to learn, it's just the
way its always been around these parts.
I know it sounds bad, but the insurance people I've dealt with and discussed business with seem to have been some of the most clueless people on the planet. Obviously it is a high profit industry, and maybe there is room for all the incompetents.......???
Plenty of profit in auto and home, no need to bother with industrial risks.

Another (humorous?) story from a clueless local agent:
He shows up to talk with me about coverage.
Right out of the gate, he says "so how big is your building"?
I say the total floor space is about 9000 between 2 buildings.
He says, "Well, your website says your shop is 3500sq ft, and I looked on Google earth, and that
looks like 7000 or so, and now you tell me 9000. Seems like someone's lying here".

WTF....
Lying?
I say "NO, not Lying.....the main building is about 7000, the storage building is around 2000 and I occupy right around 3500 sq ft inside the 7000 sq ft building with the remainder being storage".
Why would you think that's lying?? Why would you use the word LYING ? Why the accusatory tone? I'm not going to say my shop is 7000 sq ft when it is really only 3500.

"Oh, now I see" He says.....what a DIP.
Then he sees the the wall that separates my heated shop area from the storage area, and starts saying he 'doesn't know' if the wall should be fire rated or not, bla, bla, bla...
No, it's all my space, not a separate area occupied by a tenant!
Completely clueless.

I appreciate the posts to the possible carriers to check with.
I will check them out.

I'm trying to figure out how Farmers get insurance.
I've seen plenty of farms with repair shops inside wooden barns,
workbenches and buzz-box welders all covered with dirt, dust, hay dust,etc
I wonder who they get fire insurance from??
Not saying all farms, but some of them are pretty un-tidy and equipment is broken down.

Sentry didn't mind my 1970's clark c500 forklift. It didn't even have a seatbelt, the only saftey device it had was a horn and that didn't even work. They didn't require me to have a forklift training cert either. They offer the online training to help their customers be osha complient. They send me safety related emails all the time and they have many on line training courses. Your not required to do any of it. There just trying to help their customers, which in turn helps them.

Btw, they also have machinery breakdown coverage in their policy. This was one of the biggest reasons I switched. I know a guy that rapided the turret into the chuck on his captain lathe and split the cross slide. The repair bill was approx 20k and sentry picked up the tab minus deductable of course.

I also have sentry, and they have been good to deal. They are into doing machine shops alot. We are also in a pole barn(wood structure ) building and they don't have a problem with that.Later Jason.

I try to put myself in the other person's shoes.

If I were an insurance company what information would I want to know about the business I cover? Would I want to visit the site? Watch how the work is being done? What work is being done? How the products and services are being marketed and try my best to see if the products getting delivered are meeting that marketed standard?

I would tell you that before insuring anybody if I owned the insurance company I would do all of that and more. If you are doing things I like then most likely I would insure you for a good rate. But anything I didn't like would raise the rate very fast and probably I would just walk away.

What would you do if you visited your own shop and then assess a rate based on what you see?

dkmc said:

I'm trying to figure out how Farmers get insurance.
I've seen plenty of farms with repair shops inside wooden barns,
workbenches and buzz-box welders all covered with dirt, dust, hay dust,etc
I wonder who they get fire insurance from??
Not saying all farms, but some of them are pretty un-tidy and equipment is broken down.

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They get their insurance at the same place I do........... Farm Bureau. I have FANTASTIC business insurance with liability and equipment break down insurance...........for right around $1300 a year.