Are you a cheap assed boss?

A former employee stopped by on the weekend for a visit and we were discussing the goings on at his new shop. He mentioned the problems he has tooling up jobs and pointed to the tap organizer It's one of those plastic drawer things you get from the hardware store for about 20 bucks, and all the taps up to 1 1/4" are in there, all the bigger ones are lined up in a drawer.

"Man, if we could even get something like that life would be better, every tap in the shop is in one big drawer from 0-80 to 2".It takes me forever just to find the right tap, if we even have it. The bosses won't buy anything, or let me spend the time to even organize"

This took me back to my employee days and the guy I worked for, he had the same approach. I would be in a situation where I would need to say, tap some 10-32 holes in some stainless and all the taps would be wiped right out. the standard response to a request for taps would be "just use what we have" and then he would be pissed when a tap broke in a hole. This is just one example of hundreds of those little "it took me 3 extra hours to finish this job for the sake of a $10.00 tool."

Even after 11 years, I am still investing in the shop and moving forward, Maybe not quite as much as I used to but by now the shop has most of what we need to get the job done. I will forever be intolerant of trying to get jobs done without "appropriate" tools. I am not going to buy a $300.00 carbide drill to drill 20 holes in a piece of 1018, however I try to use common sense when trying to make tool/equipment purchasing decisions. And I can't be all wrong after 11 years and being where I think I am at a decent spot in life.

I see many examples like the above in shops where they won't buy a tool for any reason, unless the job absolutely cannot be completed without it. Or what is usually worse, buying the wrong tool because it is cheaper and the boss thinks maybe they can squeak by with it. For what a machinist cost around here, it doesn't take long to pay for tooling if the job gets done faster.

I would like to get input on how y'all make your purchasing decisions, and do you feel your building the shop up, or having the right tools is just the it's done in your shop, or do you not buy anything unless you absolutely have to and why. And how your decisions impact the bottom line at the end of the year.

I manufacture a product in my garage, by myself. My goal is to be able to put my hands on whatever I am looking for in less than 30 seconds. The difference a drill and tap index can make for one person makes a huge difference, I can't imagine multiplying that by 10+ people. As far as a method of deciding, I use ROI. If I can buy a tool that costs $ 100 and it will save me 10 minutes on a job that run 20 times a month...sold. It all goes back to, what is your time worth?

Not many cheap people admit to it.

Taps, drills, endmills I try to keep a decent stock and reorder more when I know a job is coming that will use the current stock.
When it comes to larger drills though I see no reason to have everything up to 3" in 64th increments, big waste of $ that is.
Overall it just has to make sense. I like the shops that are a complete mess, they're easier to compete with

Crappy/worn-out tools are the second most expensive items a shop can have (stupid people being the most expensive). Time is money in a job shop and spending time finding stuff or fixing stuff is just money down the toilet.

I used to work for a man that made me make everything, when we wouldnt have a bolt or a nut rather than run to the store to get some I would machine one. We wouldnt buy any parts for anything we made it all. I exploded on the boss when he had me repair a plastic bijur oil resevoir. I refused and told him to do it himself, he did. He bought lots of harbor freight hand tools and when I broke them he would fix them. I dont hesitate to buy a tool. I am always amazed at how much I still need.

BTW

Every proper old book strongly advises against the storage of any tool that got teeth on the sides/circumference in a heap, drawer, pile, whatever.

That would be mostly reamers, endmills, files and taps.


I think the reason needs no explanation.
If a scrape with something hard can fresh up a reamer that cuts undersize, nobody should try out what shop monkeys will cause by slamming shut a drawer with "cutting tool salad" every day....

Edit : Yeah Kevin, thats another one. After i had first learned to do some decent machining, the boss of the museum had to STOP me from being an idiot and make stuff which can be had for a good price. Boy, am I glad he did.

There are situations where the ROI is harder to determine or guarantee, (we all know those customers and those jobs). But, in general my attitude is if we need something, and we KNOW it will work, get it. Taps are a touchy subject for me, I kind of have to deal with the drawer thing, it is organized to size but they are just rolling around in there bouncing off each other, it sucks.

Aside, maybe this is the reason small tooling ends up in machinists toolboxes

Robert

thedave said:

I manufacture a product in my garage, by myself. My goal is to be able to put my hands on whatever I am looking for in less than 30 seconds. The difference a drill and tap index can make for one person makes a huge difference, I can't imagine multiplying that by 10+ people. As far as a method of deciding, I use ROI. If I can buy a tool that costs $ 100 and it will save me 10 minutes on a job that run 20 times a month...sold. It all goes back to, what is your time worth?

Click to expand...

I think exactly like Dave. I can put my hands on any tool I need in a few seconds. Hunt time in my shop is almost "0". It is all a result of cleanup and organization.

The cheap boss is living in reverse economics. However, what if you had a bunch of employees that did not take care of anything? A boss could go broke real quick keeping these people supplied with good tooling. I feel somewhat sorry for the boss. He proabably can't win either way.

I can't believe how poorly some people take care of things. I have kids that buy a new socket sets every year because everything gets lost one tool at a time. I have the same socket set (or sets) for the past 40 years.

Jim

Steve@Reliance said:

Even after 11 years, I am still investing in the shop and moving forward, Maybe not quite as much as I used to but by now the shop has most of what we need to get the job done. I will forever be intolerant of trying to get jobs done without "appropriate" tools. I am not going to buy a $300.00 carbide drill to drill 20 holes in a piece of 1018, however I try to use common sense when trying to make tool/equipment purchasing decisions. And I can't be all wrong after 11 years and being where I think I am at a decent spot in life.

I would like to get input on how y'all make your purchasing decisions, and do you feel your building the shop up, or having the right tools is just the it's done in your shop, or do you not buy anything unless you absolutely have to and why. And how your decisions impact the bottom line at the end of the year.

Click to expand...

Been here for closing in on twenty .... .... three (?) yrs now? I'm still working on it too. For the "toolroom" I have a tap index from Snap-On or Mac (?) that holds two of each "current" tap in use up to 1/2" in one drawer. If there is a currently used one of this size, it should be here. If it's not, there are bulk packs of new ones for each size in the rest of that drawer. These are usually just SPT and bottoming.

Same thing for the drills. I have the 3 in 1 and all current use drills live there. If it aint there, it must'a been tossed and go fetch a new one...

I have the 3 in 1 Hout drill cabinet that holds at least a "pack" qty of each size, plus a drawer in the bottom for misc and +1/2" sizes.

For new - I think I'm good, but where I lack is "current use" for the production area. I have a cpl drawers for current use drills and taps, but like your guy, I hafta look for a while to see if I have that size already "in use". I am getting real close to splurging for a second big cabinet for current use drills and see what they have for taps for the same as well.

It would help if I got my "like" machines all together a bit better, but I guess I will never get everything all together - anymore than it already is, and I would like nothing better than to get some elbow room, so not sure how I'm gunna please myself there. ???

I need to doo something to organize my Allieds and Iscar drills in logical order too. Been getting too many of this and that - and then Iscar has two to three different versions of the same thing going on to add insult to injury ....

I have a cpl of ongoing milling jobs that I have cabinets drawers dedicated to the tools on those jobs specifically. At any time you can poke your head in that drawer to see what is or aint there.

That covers cutting tools pretty much, but I could really use that elbow room so that I could not have skids of this and hoppers of that all upon each other. I spend as much or more time shuffling "stuff" than I doo looking for good used tools.

As far as buying the right tool - my right tool is seldom the most productive tool. When it comes to "most productive" I find those to be $alty. And a crash of any sorts gets expensive. I'm more of a "better" guy. I would rather eat some time as to eat a bunch of $ in a train wreck.


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Sure is nice today not to have the phone ringing continuously with political BS!
Ox

Don't tell anybody- it's a secret! When a perishable tool is worn out, and when nobody is looking, I throw it out. That way when something needs to be done, it gets done with proper sharp tools, even if they have to be purchased. In the long run it's a lot cheaper than wrecking stuff with bad tooling. And don't ever kid yourself that customers don't know the difference between well made parts and indifferent parts, even if they both meet spec.

No Stupid people warning sign

Post it in your work space

http://www.mbd2.com/forum/balloon_Animal_Blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/no_stupid_people.jpg

When I take a new tap I usually write on its case afterward how many inches of what material it cut, assuming it didn't do enough work to just go in the recycle bin.

My biggest sorting problem is the darn fixtures. I've just been putting those in the bottom of the red tool box. I write the # and so on on it when I can, but that one particular spot is a bit of a confusion. Problem of not having enough room for more storage space.

thruthefence said:

Post it in your work space

http://www.mbd2.com/forum/balloon_Animal_Blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/no_stupid_people.jpg

Click to expand...

You doo realize of course that one-of-these-dayz I will be sending that on over to my sign-painter chumm to have made _ right?


...not entirely sure what that haz to doo with this here thread, but .....

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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

SND said:

When I take a new tap I usually write on its case afterward how many inches of what material it cut, assuming it didn't do enough work to just go in the recycle bin.

My biggest sorting problem is the darn fixtures. I've just been putting those in the bottom of the red tool box. I write the # and so on on it when I can, but that one particular spot is a bit of a confusion. Problem of not having enough room for more storage space.

Click to expand...

Truth,

Same here, however we have started dot matrix marking our set up jigs and homemade tooling. I would have to live another 100 years to get things sorted the way I want..

Never ending fight to stay organized

Keeping organized in a small space is always tough, however even this can be tackled with "investment". Lista/Vidmar cabinets have been on my list since I opened, but have never been important enough to purchase. The used ones seem to go for near new price whenever I see them.

Steve@Reliance said:

Keeping organized in a small space is always tough, however even this can be tackled with "investment". Lista/Vidmar cabinets have been on my list since I opened, but have never been important enough to purchase. The used ones seem to go for near new price whenever I see them.

Click to expand...

We got a good deal on ebay picked up two 60 x 24 x 44 in. countertop types, Stanley Vidmar. Now in process of collecting the plastic bins and seperators and should be starting the sorting process this spring.
Is relaxing to do and once accomplished a great high. However finding the right time is again another challenge

''Are you a cheap assed boss?''

The cheapest, if I feel like it, I don't even pay myself.

''Are you a cheap assed boss?''

I must be.....I'm self employed....haven't had a raise in years. No paid holidays. No vacation in years. missed hunting season last year. Haven't bought a new car in years. No retirement to speak of.....

HOWEVER......

I have drawers full of sharp new tools. I haven't had to cuss about not being able to get a job done on the week due to material or cutter shortage. I have good software and decent cheap american machines and I would rather be in the shop than at a dinner party. Which is good 'cause that is where I have to be.

I guess it's all priorities. Couldn't say if mine are right....but I think the place you spend the most time should be the coziest. Hating something for 10 hrs a day so the two hr respite you get each evening feels extra good never made sense to me....

I used to say, when working for other cheap assed bosses, "Some day when I have my own shop I'm gonna do things different....."

Pretty much have.

I'm just a home-shop hobby machinist, and I often make something that I could buy much more cheaply -- if I were calculating the value of my time on the same basis as a professional shop. But since the machining is therapeutic fun for me, making a tool -- or really anything -- is saving me untold $$ at the shrink.

That said, I keep my shop very organized, and I very well understand the value of having the proper tooling on hand. One of the easiest and best bits of organization I ever did required 10 minutes and a piece of scrap plywood. I drilled rows of holes of the appropriate size to hold taps of the sizes I typically use, along with the appropriate drill for that tap (for standard fits, which is generally all I ever need). This fits exactly in a drawer. So when I need to tap something, I open the drawer and can find exactly what I need in about half a second -- and putting it back in its place is equally fast.

I am cheap assed but not when it comes to things like stocking cutting tools, fasteners and materials. I probably spend too much time shopping around and sometimes buy too much to get a small break on price. But I used to work in a pattern shop where you would spend half an hour looking for a 2"x 3/8" bolt and when you asked the boss to buy some he would send the shop helper out to the hardware store to buy the number you needed. We often ran out of 3" #12 wood screws when they were probably the most common sized screws we used and you would end up going around the shop scrounging up used screws from guys benches. I don't keep the shop nearly as organized as I should so common consumable tools that I use a lot are scattered all over the shop. I never have to look far for 1/4" or 3/16" drill bits or screwdriver bits. I do limited machining but I still have more cutting tools than the two pattern job shops I worked for previously do together.